Appraisal Scammer Strikes back Again...

[DN BROKER]

Yes, he is back.. its been a while since this CONMAN attacked... he is back.. he has read my list of domains that are listed for sale on this forum and has decided to make a purchase... now who this member is... will be a secret.. unless we have someone from the FBI track this dude...

heres the pasted emails:

[email protected]

Hello,

We are interested in marketingmobile.biz

Your name was listed for sale. Please let us know your price.

Our works in information technology industry. Our clients are mainly from Europe, Australia and Canada.

So investing in names is just a part of our investment strategy.

Looking forward to do business with you.

Regards,
Thomas Lassen
Vice President
TNG Software


2nd email:

Hello,

Sorry for some delay with response. I had a very important meeting with
directors of our client, a large multi-international corporation.

Let's get back to our business

Can you accept 1,400 USD?


Do you sell domain with a web site or just name?

If just name it's ok. Web site is not necessary.

Have you had your domains appraised already? Can you show me your valuation
certificates? As fas I know it's a common practice to show appraisal of
domain name (even without traffic and web site) before doing business.

Without appraisal I risk to overpay. In other words I won't be able to make
a profit on reselling this name. It's very important for you and me to know
the current market value of your domains.

Of course, we must be sure that you are engaging an appraisal company with
REAL manual service. I heard many appraisal companies often made inaccurate
auto-generated appraisals. I will only accept appraisals from independent
sources I trust. To avoid mistakes I asked domain experts about reputable
appraisal companies in a forum
http://**********.ourplace.com/Archive/740623.htm


Just check this posting.

If the appraisal comes higher you can adjust your asking price accordingly.
I also hope you can give me 10% - 15% discount of the appraised value.

After I get an appraisal from you we'll continue our negotiations.

How do you prefer to get paid: www.escrow.com, www.PayPal.com check or
wire?

Hope we can come to an agreement fast.

Looking forward to your reply.

 

[leo]

They wont stop till new domainers stop falling for this..

 

[DN BROKER]

Closed

 

[Theo]

I just finished watching 'Matchstick Men', you really need to see it.

Is the appraisal scam immoral, unethical? Yes. Is it illegal? Most likely, no, unless you can point me to the relevant law that says that one is required to purchase a domain after referring the seller to an appraisal company from which they get a cut.

The seller voluntarily gets an appraisal; all they can do is complain about the service - the appraisal - not the fact that the sale will fall through in this case.

 

[DN BROKER]

Closed

 

[Theo]

Ok, good luck.

 

[FuseFX]

Hmm. Atleast I can feel happy that I was offered 25k for a crappy domain of mine by the same scammer. Though I totally agree with Theo that while it may be immoral but it isn't illegal. The only thing we can do is to spread awareness.

who is this member exxe has been in this thread since i posted it... 0 post but for some odd reason has interest in this one topic... i may be wrong.. but this may be our suspect... otherwise i appologize if im wrong ... but a bit weired 0 post and is reading this thread for 20+ minutes

No need to be so suspicious. vBulletin times-out a person after 25-30 minutes. That means, s/he may have just visited your thread and closed the browser window -- and since no further activity is being recorded, vBulletin is just showing him/her active in this thread.

 

[VirtualT]

Thats BS, we need to cage the CONMAN... our system online needs to protect us from Aholes like him...

who is this member exxe has been in this thread since i posted it... 0 post but for some odd reason has interest in this one topic... i may be wrong.. but this may be our suspect... otherwise i appologize if im wrong ... but a bit weired 0 post and is reading this thread for 20+ minutes

LOL :spy:

 

[katherine]

The appraisal scam spam can be traced to a dial-up provider in Russia: mtu.ru.
I doubt the FBI is going to do anything about it.
On the other hand if they use a US front and credit card processing services (all4domains ?) then something can be done.

 

[stock_post]

Thats BS, we need to cage the CONMAN... our system online needs to protect us from Aholes like him...

who is this member exxe has been in this thread since i posted it... 0 post but for some odd reason has interest in this one topic... i may be wrong.. but this may be our suspect... otherwise i appologize if im wrong ... but a bit weired 0 post and is reading this thread for 20+ minutes

I am reading the thread as well - but do I have to post?
if I read a thread.. you are going little out of bounds.

I may feel your pain, if you have lost money to that CONN.

but please don't suspect the people who read the thread.
-- I had to post so, you don't call me the CONN guy!

 

[GoPC]

Is the appraisal scam immoral, unethical? Yes. Is it illegal? Most likely, no, unless you can point me to the relevant law that says that one is required to purchase a domain after referring the seller to an appraisal company from which they get a cut.

Well... the legal definition of fraud, as outlined by the Law, states:

Fraud is: the intentional use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another of his/her/its money, property or a legal right. A party who has lost something due to fraud is entitled to file a lawsuit for damages against the party acting fraudulently, and the damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud.

Sounds pretty straight forward to me... so yeah, I would say that a scam designed to acquire money through the use of deceit, a trick or some dishonest means to deprive another constitutes Fraud.

And Fraud comes with all kinds of laws.

Be careful Acro... you post not only sounds like you condone fraud, but also as if you are trying to justify if for yourself. I know you're not, your point is "buyer beware" but even so... a post can be easily misunderstood.

Bottom line... the appraisal scam is fraud. Fraud is illegal. These Scammers are breaking the law.

GoPC

 

[David G]

Is the appraisal scam immoral, unethical? Yes. Is it illegal? Most likely, no, unless you can point me to the relevant law that says that one is required to purchase a domain after referring the seller to an appraisal company from which they get a cut.

Agree, and if in fact the scammer does occasionally actually buy a domain for which an appraisal was done it makes it clear to authorities is is not illegal in any way. How can it be illegal even if he buys 1 name out of a 1000? If the scammer was smart he would in fact buy one every so often.

Even if he never buys a name there is still nothing illegal about running another business for extra revenue which does appraisals. Ownership in a small business like that need not be disclosed to the public and joint ownership also does not need to be revealed. There is really nothing wrong with asking people do business with a firm you also own, is there?

I am not condoning this it's just my 2 cents on the subject.

 

[Theo]

Be careful Acro... you post not only sounds like you condone fraud, but also as if you are trying to justify if for yourself. I know you're not, your point is "buyer beware" but even so... a post can be easily misunderstood.

Bottom line... the appraisal scam is fraud. Fraud is illegal. These Scammers are breaking the law.

GoPC

I think you make general assumptions, both about me and the law.

You have to understand that while fraud exists, tagging something as punishable by law is a whole other field. That's why legal experts exist.

Suing based on one's assumption is feasible; but gain is not always probable. If, for example, US mail were used to facilitate a transaction that involved monetary exchange, then a case would be easier to establish.

Objectively, I don't see how you could construct a case against someone who a) places an offer to buy a domain, while b) is affiliated with a domain appraisal service. The appraisal on its own is subjective and is based on criteria that may or may not be disclosed. Unless you have an expert witness in domain valuation, you can not claim that the appraisal is unfair or a fraud. In other words, unless there is a concrete promise, an agreement, a contract to buy the domain regardless of the appraisal, I don't see how you would establish a case of fraud in court.

By the way, I like playing Devil's advocate quite often.

 

[GoPC]

Correct, victory is certainly not guaranteed in our legal system. The question was can scams such as this be considered illegal? Where in the Law does it cover this kind of activity.

FRAUD

Would you not agree that the scammer is looking to extract money from someone under false pretenses?

If you don't, then we have a foundational, moral difference. I don't believe that scamming and fraud is legal and falling for it is simply the fault of the scammed.

I assume, under that definition, then folks taking money to rebuild houses in the aftermath of Katrina and then disappearing with the money forever is the fault of the homeless Katrina victims? It's THEIR fault, not the fault of the scammer?

This isn't any different. Fraud is fraud.

The question of a scam is answered.

The question of whether or now a legitimate offer that is veto'd because the valuation came in below the original offer, is also answered... NOT fraud.

The point is intent. And that intent is what would be on trial, if it were brought to a tryor of fact.

An individual that is both profiting from the appraisal while very rarely purchasing the domains shows history, profit, intent and deception. All elements of the legal definition of Fraud and established the grounds for remedy.

Also, it is to note... "getting away with it" also doesn't negate the fraud. It is a fundamental element of the Fraud.

How about putting a deposit down on the domain while it is being evaluated? Or, how about the buyer, if he is serious, paying for the evaluation him/herself at the choice of the seller or agreed upon appraiser of both parties?

Wouldn't those options remove the element of fraud?

GoPC

 

[Kevin]

Internet Fraud, deception, etc, whether technically classified as illegal or not is sadly only going to expand exponentially in the future because of the ease of execution and the ability for those perpetrating the actions to cover their tracks. And although complaints should be filed, Lord Brar raises the most important long-term objective: raise awareness (such as what you are doing here).

 

[Theo]

Correct, victory is certainly not guaranteed in our legal system. The question was can scams such as this be considered illegal? Where in the Law does it cover this kind of activity.

FRAUD

Would you not agree that the scammer is looking to extract money from someone under false pretenses?

If you don't, then we have a foundational, moral difference. I don't believe that scamming and fraud is legal and falling for it is simply the fault of the scammed.

I assume, under that definition, then folks taking money to rebuild houses in the aftermath of Katrina and then disappearing with the money forever is the fault of the homeless Katrina victims? It's THEIR fault, not the fault of the scammer?

This isn't any different. Fraud is fraud.

The question of a scam is answered.

The question of whether or now a legitimate offer that is veto'd because the valuation came in below the original offer, is also answered... NOT fraud.

The point is intent. And that intent is what would be on trial, if it were brought to a tryor of fact.

An individual that is both profiting from the appraisal while very rarely purchasing the domains shows history, profit, intent and deception. All elements of the legal definition of Fraud and established the grounds for remedy.

Also, it is to note... "getting away with it" also doesn't negate the fraud. It is a fundamental element of the Fraud.

How about putting a deposit down on the domain while it is being evaluated? Or, how about the buyer, if he is serious, paying for the evaluation him/herself at the choice of the seller or agreed upon appraiser of both parties?

Wouldn't those options remove the element of fraud?

GoPC

All of the above are speculations, formulated and tailored as an attempt to create a case of fraud. However, there is no law that without a contract requires a person to fully disclose their affiliation to the service they recommend. For a second, think not as the victim but as the judge that would look up the law, gather the facts and would decide on the case.

 

[Luc]

I agree with Acroplex, as I often do on this forum. This is in the "gray" side of law.

If you fall for this scam, you are a DUMBASS and need to leave the internet because you will get scammed dry by the various scam artists that operate in these waters.

This is along the lines of "$10,000,000,000 ITALIAN LOTTERY WINNER", "NIGERIAN KIN AWARDED YOU $10 TRILLION" and the "UPDATE YOUR CHASE BANK ACCOUNT" scams. Only the biggest fools fall for them.

FBI doesn't give a rats ass about this guy. The law doesn't give a rats ass about him either. If you want to sue him, chances are he'll have more money and hire better lawyers than you can afford.

I hate these scammers more than anyone, but once identified, you can program a rule into outlook to just trash those emails, additionally I add them to a spam list.

Best thing to do, is what BATMAN did, report him, and all information linked to his company to our community so everyone is aware of the scam. These are very easy to spot, but for the newbies, they'll be helpful.

Luc

 

[GoPC]

All of the above are speculations, formulated and tailored as an attempt to create a case of fraud. However, there is no law that without a contract requires a person to fully disclose their affiliation to the service they recommend. For a second, think not as the victim but as the judge that would look up the law, gather the facts and would decide on the case.

But, the law defines a "contract" as a offer to provide and receive between two parties, written or implied. When a contract was entered into with the intent to breach for financial gain, that is fraud.

The legal requirements of a contract are extremely simple to prove in Court. The legal requirements of Fraud are more difficult to prove in Court.

From a judicial point of view, proof must meet the requirements of the Law, that is always the case. However, I think there is alot of people that "Get away with fraud" simply because those that have been defrauded are at a loss for the ability to produce the links they need to pin the persons to the crime. They can't, WITHOUT the law, break through "privacy" barriers to prove the essential elements of the fraud being committed.

That does NOT, however, mean that the scam is legal.

It just means that in this, like so many others, the case is difficult to prove.

GoPC

 

[Theo]

But, the law defines a "contract" as a offer to provide and receive between two parties, written or implied.

The offer is conditional per the terms and conditions and I am sure the perpetrators know how to cover themselves. Unless you can point me to an existing law specifically targeting such practices, I do not see how Joe Domainer can have their day in court.

 

[GoPC]

The offer is conditional per the terms and conditions and I am sure the perpetrators know how to cover themselves. Unless you can point me to an existing law specifically targeting such practices, I do not see how Joe Domainer can have their day in court.

That is the job of the scammer... to reinforce the idea that although the victim has been defrauded, there is nothing they can do about it. Followed closely by the careful planning to protect themselves as much as possible from any possible prosecution.

However, that is not to say it is impossible to seek remedy.

Remember, the Law that affects these cases is not contract law, it is FRAUD.

Contracts that are specifically written in an attempt to defraud are not completely bound by the terms of the agreement if the terms are found in effort to defraud an individual or entity.

In other words, it comes back to intent.

The Law you choose not to apply to this is FRAUD, and to sue for Fraud, all the plantiff need do is state that he was defrauded, intentionally and how. Then he shall have his day in court.

Whether he wins or not is dependent on a laundry list of other influences.

So I completely disagree with you. It is a violation of the law to intentionally mislead someone into paying you money after you have made and offer to buy something, when you have no intention of buying in the first place... a situation where your intent is to benefit from the appraisal, NOT the sale/purchase.

The laws governing the litigation of Fraud clearly cover this. A verbal or written contract is nullified by the intent in these cases.

It is a violation of the Law and subject to prosecution and perfectly within the rights of the victim to pursue.

The end result of the litigation will be based in the ability of the victim to produce the state's required burden of proof, the overall picture of fraudulent activities they are able to present and convince to the tryor of fact and their financial ability to take the time and afford the cost of properly presenting their case. Finally, there is the matter of revealing "Mr. Wizard", the party behind the Fraud... which is the most challenging part of the ordeal.

The first and foremost rule to a good scam is to take a small enough amount of money to make it worth the effort, knowing that it will hurt the victim but not enough to justify the expense of prosecution.

This is, in a nutshell, exactly what the Appraisal Scam is all about.

I cannot understand why you would defend it.

GoPC