General Motors Urges More Hydrogen Stations

[H2FC]

GM Urges More Hydrogen Stations

Rapid Progress on Fuel Cell Vehicles Needs to Be Matched With Rapid Progress on Hydrogen Fueling

SACRAMENTO, CA --General Motors called on the energy industry and governments to step up and help automakers make volume production of fuel cell-electric vehicles a reality by opening more hydrogen fueling stations.

That message was delivered by Larry Burns, General Motors vice president, research & development and strategic planning. Burns delivered a keynote address at the National Hydrogen Association’s annual conference in Sacramento, CA.

“The automobile industry has reached a critical juncture in our journey to realize the full potential of hydrogen fuel cell-electric vehicles,” said Burns. “While we have made impressive progress, we have now reached a point where the energy industry and governments must pick up their pace so we can continue to advance in a timely manner.”

Burns noted that other automakers are also spending significant amounts on developing fuel cell technology and want to bring large numbers of fuel cell vehicles to market, but he points out that parallel investment by the energy industry and governments is urgently required.

Burns’s comments coincided with the release of a new study by General Motors and Shell Hydrogen, which concluded that a hydrogen infrastructure is economically viable and doable.

“It’s no longer a question of ‘can it be done?’ or ‘should it be done?’” said Burns. “We not only should do it. We must do it. It’s now a question of collective will. Do we have the collective resolve to work together to solve the challenges we face rather than handing them off to future generations?”
Read the whole story... http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage8652.html

 

[fab]

I started looking into the Hydrogen cars. As usual, there are various issues and opinions. It would be nice to see someone presenting all sides of these issues. I would like some sort of comparison of the possible different solutions as well, like pros & cons of:
1. Completely electric cars, i.e., charged through electricity,
2. Hybrid,
3. Diesel,
4. Hydrogen,
5. Ethanol fuel

 

[H2FC]

I started looking into the Hydrogen cars. As usual, there are various issues and opinions. It would be nice to see someone presenting all sides of these issues. I would like some sort of comparison of the possible different solutions as well, like pros & cons of:
1. Completely electric cars, i.e., charged through electricity,
2. Hybrid,
3. Diesel,
4. Hydrogen,
5. Ethanol fuel

Probably the best way to learn all the pros & cons is to do a search on the various parts of the issue. I've been reading/studing this subject for over 10 years now and I'm convinced H2 electric cars will eventually replace the oil burning ICE cars. New and better technology is being reported everyday. We could have thousands of H2 cars on the road now if an H2 fueling pump were available in our gas stations.....but who controls the nations gas stations? You guessed it...Big Oil!

 

[HarveyJ]

Ethanol fuel is taking off really nicely in Australia, but that's because we already have massive tracts of land that was set aside for sugar cane about a century ago. The Cane Farmers Federation are really happy there's a market for their product again. The problem for other countries that don't already have these sort of high energy crops already growing is that if they have to deforest land to make way for fields for maize or cane, then it's actually worse on the environment as the forests are no longer there to scrub the air. Pure electrical car, powered by solar, wind or hydro power would probably be the best option over all, but the complexity of manufacture is always an issue...

 

[draggar]

I started looking into the Hydrogen cars. As usual, there are various issues and opinions. It would be nice to see someone presenting all sides of these issues. I would like some sort of comparison of the possible different solutions as well, like pros & cons of:
1. Completely electric cars, i.e., charged through electricity,
2. Hybrid,
3. Diesel,
4. Hydrogen,
5. Ethanol fuel

Why not start one? I'm sure there are plenty of good domains out there for this and since i seems like there isn't any out there...

Poke me in a year and I'll kick myself for saying this now. :smilewinkgrin::lol:

Pure electrical car, powered by solar, wind or hydro power would probably be the best option over all, but the complexity of manufacture is always an issue...

Does anyone else find it interesting that we haven't developed the technology yet to use water as a fuel source?

Think about it, water, H2O - two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule, can you think of a more combustible combination?

Ironic that we use two of the most combustible elements to put out fires, too.

 

[H2FC]

People just don't seem to believe it but the technology is here NOW......H2 cars are already being built but the problem is with the H2 fueling stations. There is no way the companies can get the price down on non-poluting H2cars without building and selling more of them and they can't do that without the H2 refueling stations. Laws will have to be passed forcing the big oil gas stations to allow room for H2 pumps at their stations.

As for the availability of H2, I read recently where there is enough available right now to suppy over 100,000 cars for a year. Read this article what Toyota says about the situation. http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20080409/150240/?ST=english_PRINT

 

[fab]

Here is just one some criticism I've found.

President Bush's hydrogen car goals, in the opinion of some writers, are slipping away because "there are quicker, cleaner, safer and cheaper ways to reduce the tail-pipe emissions from cars and trucks that pollute the air and contribute to global warming." According to physicist and former U.S. Department of Energy official Joseph Romm, "A hydrogen car is one of the least efficient, most expensive ways to reduce greenhouse gases." Asked when hydrogen cars will be broadly available, Romm replied: "Not in our lifetime, and very possibly never."[5] General Motors disagrees with that sentiment and has announced that it will start hydrogen vehicle production in 2010. However, GM's chief engineer on the fuel cell project, Mohsen Shabana, said hydrogen infrastructure would not be in place by then, and he noted that GM had produced only two test units of the Sequel (pictured above) so far.[30] As an article published in the March/April 2007 issue of Technology Review argued,

Furthermore, in the article, they claim the Hydrogen cars may produce more pollution than the standard ones.

This is from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle, and as I mentioned I'm not very familiar with the topic, so I'm sure there will be rebuttal.

 

[H2FC]

While h2 fuelcell car technology is available now I suspect it will be several years before we'll be seeing many of them on the road and in the parking lots....the h2 fueling structure being the biggest obstacle.

H2Fuelcells for small devices will be hitting the market soon...in fact they are available now in some areas. Larger fuelcells for homes will probably be available before the vehicle ones are. They are being used in many parts of the world especially Japan and China. H2FC bikes, scooters, tools, and forklifts are also catching on. I believe the fuelcell cars will be the last to gain popularity.

 

[Raider]

When they give out Free Hydrogen conversions for existing autos, let me know.

We trade-in our cars when they stop selling replacement parts. :lol:

 

[H2FC]

When they give out Free Hydrogen conversions for existing autos, let me know.

We trade-in our cars when they stop selling replacement parts. :lol:

Or maybe when gas goes to $10 a gallon?

welcome back Raider....I missed you....

 

[HarveyJ]

The problem with water fuelling for cars is that water has a lot of covalent bonding going on, which involves huge amount of energy to split it up into its component atoms.
Currently it requires more energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen than energy that can be harvested back out of it.
Theoretically speaking, if one could figure out how to harness energy (or even create) a water based fission reaction, there would be a greater output of harnessed power than the input to split it... At that point, it becomes very VERY feasible.

The other problem is simply sitting on large tanks of atomic hydrogen and oxygen is basically making EVERY VEHICLE A GIGANTIC BOMB!!
Ever seen a car that runs on LPG go up? They go up like in the movies (which doesn't actually happen to cars running on gasoline, diesel, or petroleum).

From what I can figure with my fairly lay education, water based electrolytic cells are definitely the way to go for automotive transport, but there are massive costs involved in getting manufacturing plants up to muster for a market that hasn't been proven to actually exist.

 

[Raider]

Or maybe when gas goes to $10 a gallon?

welcome back Raider....I missed you....

What you missed was somebody to argue with

I'm all for alternative fuels, anything to end our dependency on foreign oil... My big concern is how much will it cost the average consumer?

 

[H2FC]

What you missed was somebody to argue with

I'm all for alternative fuels, anything to end our dependency on foreign oil... My big concern is how much will it cost the average consumer?

When as much money and effort starts going into alternative energies as goes into dirty fossil fuels now, the cost to the consumer for energy will be much less than what being paid now. Not only will the energy cost be less but almost everything else in this world we have to deal with will be better.....things like mid-eastern wars, pollution, pending manmade climate change disaster, etc.....

 

[fab]

I'm all for alternative fuels, anything to end our dependency on foreign oil... My big concern is how much will it cost the average consumer?

I agree 100%.

 

[Donald Aquilano]

What you missed was somebody to argue with

I'm all for alternative fuels, anything to end our dependency on foreign oil... My big concern is how much will it cost the average consumer?

Raider- Alternative Fuels I believe are not ready for the big time yet so I think we should drill for more of are own oil here in the US. The only way to bring down the price of oil is to create more supply,OUR own supply.Of course the libtards here and around the country will never allow that to happen.

 

[H2FC]

thank God for the libtards...

 

[Donald Aquilano]

thank God for the libtards...

Tell me H2FC what do you have against drilling for more oil? I mean oil is used in almost everything product we consume or use. It can't be eliminated as so may of you libs think. I think the only thing you care about is the hoax known as Global Warming or as I like to call it Global Whining.

Oh a by the way if General Motors thinks the prospect of hydrogen cars is so good than General Motors will have no problem building them with their own money and not having the taxpayers foot the bill for it.:approve:

As the old saying goes " Put your money where your mouth is"

 

[H2FC]

Tell me H2FC what do you have against drilling for more oil?

If we keep burning oil and coal for energy we will destroy our world in less than a hundred years.....I don't know about you but that doesn't set too well with me.

I mean oil is used in almost everything product we consume or use. It can't be eliminated as so may of you libs think.

Yes....and thats what the problem is....people who believe it can't be eliminated or 90% eliminated have been brainwashed into believing that way.....I'm not one of the sheep...I do my own thinking.....and BTW, I'm probably more of a conservative than you are.

I think the only thing you care about is the hoax known as Global Warming

If you really think that it only serves to prove you're one of the brainwashed sheep.

or as I like to call it Global Whining.

Call it what you like....what you call it changes nothing.

Oh a by the way if General Motors thinks the prospect of hydrogen cars is so good than General Motors will have no problem building them with their own money and not having the taxpayers foot the bill for it

You obviously know very little about the way big business works....maybe some of the tens of billions $$ the gov. is handing out to big oil in subsidies should be used to help develop alternative energies??? no?

As the old saying goes " Put your money where your mouth is"

And thats exactly what many business people are doing in spite of the lack of help and backing from our Bush/Cheney adminstration.....its just a matter of time before alternative fuels will be on par with fossil fuels and then those like you will be saying...."Man, this is really great...I wonder why they didn't do this sooner"?

 

[Donald Aquilano]

If we keep burning oil and coal for energy we will destroy our world in less than a hundred years.....I don't know about you but that doesn't set too well with me.

I don't by your theory that the end of world is coming they have been talking about it for last 30 years. First it was going to be an ice age and now its going to be rising sea levels.:lol:

Yes....and thats what the problem is....people who believe it can't be eliminated or 90% eliminated have been brainwashed into believing that way.....I'm not one of the sheep...I do my own thinking.....and BTW, I'm probably more of a conservative than you are.

The only one that has been brainwashed here is you. Your thinking I believe is brought on by left leaning newspapers and websites who hate business and want us to live like a third world country. Living like a third world country doesn't interest me and BTW your not a conservative because conservatives don't believe in the so called Global Warming bullshit.

If you really think that it only serves to prove you're one of the brainwashed sheep. Call it what you like....what you call it changes nothing.

I call it like I see it scare tactics promoted by the left in this country.

You obviously know very little about the way big business works....maybe some of the tens of billions $$ the gov. is handing out to big oil in subsidies should be used to help develop alternative energies??? no?

You misunderstand I don't like subsidies for any business. Businesses should be able to stand on their own without government help or not be in business at all.

And thats exactly what many business people are doing in spite of the lack of help and backing from our Bush/Cheney administration.....its just a matter of time before alternative fuels will be on par with fossil fuels and then those like you will be saying...."Man, this is really great...I wonder why they didn't do this sooner"?

I don't want the Bush administration doling out any money for taxpayer funded projects for any business whether it be oil, coal or alternative fuel based companies. I'm not against alternative fuels but I am against the taxpayer having to foot the bill for something that may or may not work. Let private industry do it if its so economically viable.

 

[draggar]

I don't by your theory that the end of world is coming they have been talking about it for last 30 years. First it was going to be an ice age and now its going to be rising sea levels.:lol:

The last ice age ended about 150 years ago, coincidently the same time that we started keeping "modern" records of weather patterns.

Of course it's going to get warmer. The Earth has gone though warming and cooling periods for as long as its been around, why would it stop now?

But, according to the church of the spaghetti monster
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )

Global warming is being caused by the lack of pirates in the oceans.

You can clearly see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:FSM_Pirates.png

That the more pirates there are, the cooler the global temperatures are. We hear these stories about pirates off the coast of Somalia hijacking boats and we think they're bad but in reality they're doing their part to fight global warming.

(Note: for those of you who have no sense of humor, this post was sarcastic and made in jest).