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Iraq - your views...

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devolution

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What's going on?
What do you think will happen?

I hope that the US don't attack, as then the individual extremists would go mad and launch their own attacks on anywhere they wanted.

And what's the business with these 'Dossiers' of information about Nuclear etc. weapons that Blair et al. are promising to 'release' to the public?
 
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draqon

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i hope we do attack. saddam is almost definetely trying to develop nuclear warheads, its only a matter of time before he is able to do so. Once that happens, no one is safe. If we invade his country, do a couple billion dollars worth of damage, then it will be hard for him to finance his nuclear and chemical research program.
 

David G

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Originally posted by devolution What's going on?
What do you think will happen? I hope that the US don't attack, as then the individual extremists would go mad and launch their own attacks on anywhere they wanted. And what's the business with these 'Dossiers' of information about Nuclear etc. weapons that Blair et al. are promising to 'release' to the public?

The terrorists and terrorist states will attack the US regardless if we attack them or not.

The extremists you refer to are working on attacks even as we speak and Iraq is working on getting weapons of mass destruction (they will surely use one day) so why should the US not do a pre-emptive attack? In fact, known terrorist targets in other nations should also be attacked, not just Iraq.

On TV today (Meet The Press), VP Cheney said the US is reluctant to release the facts as they do not want to identify the sources of the info and the informants identity.

P.S. Assuming the U.S. presents some reasonably good evidence we should launch pre-emptive strikes. It seems the Admin could have done a better job with the evidence than they have and still protected identities. Perhaps good evidence will be revealed by weeks-end.
 

DotComster

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One thing I like about death - Sadaam will die sooner or later.

Another tryant bites the dust - but there are so many tyrants - good thing we have death around ;)

No "secret" info needed - Saddam murdered and jailed 10,000s or his own people - and his stupud was with Iran was uncalled for and killed too many people to.

I do not it think it's wise to rush his death, but would be glad to see it happen naturaly and fast.
 

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Originally posted by draqon
i hope we do attack. saddam is almost definetely trying to develop nuclear warheads, its only a matter of time before he is able to do so. Once that happens, no one is safe. If we invade his country, do a couple billion dollars worth of damage, then it will be hard for him to finance his nuclear and chemical research program.

This is a hot topic, and not really something for this site, but since its been brought up, I'll join in to give my views...

This war, if it occurs (which it likely will, in October or November of this year) is the most dangerous political event since the Cuban Missile Crisis, and is in fact a repudiation of the precedent Kennedy established by avowing "pre-emptive" military actions.

Over fifty years of international law will be destroyed in one fell swoop if the U.S. unilaterally undertakes miliatry action.

And the justifications being given by the government are thinner than a communion wafer.

Iraq has no WMD capabilities. This is why Scott Ritter, a former Marine and Iraq weapons inspector is going public with his first-hand knowledge of the situation, to add to the growing chorus of people, both inside America and throughout the world, trying to stop this catastrophic and tremendously unjust military agression.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...1&u=/ap/20020908/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_ritter_5

For information on this critical matter that doesn't make it onto CNN, visit this site:

www.antiwar.com

Miles
 

David G

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Originally posted by Namethink This is a hot topic, and not really something for this site, but since its been brought up, I'll join in to give my views...Over fifty years of international law will be destroyed in one fell swoop if the U.S. unilaterally undertakes militatry action..."Miles

To Hell with International Law. As far as terrorism and terror states are concerned International Law is worthless. It has no value and effect against terror.

We need to fight fire with fire. Only strong pre-emptive military strikes will stop it. Has anyone noticed suicide attacks in Israel have almost stopped for many weeks since Israel launched so many attacks, some pre-emptive by hitting terrorists leaders as they did in the cities.
 

David G

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Originally posted by Namethink The epitaph of the American Empire. Miles

Miles, Canada sending troops to Afghan was great and too bad some were killed. But what's Canada doing about it at home? I viewed a long TV show report on Canada and how many terrorists can easily penetrate the US from Canada.

They said it was because Canada is very soft and easy and lets most anyone in the country. Does not even do any background checks on immigrants, letting most everyone in from every country, including suspected terrorists from what was said.

The US has tried asking Canada to tighten up on it but it falls on deaf ears up north as the govt is extremely liberal in that regard, according to the TV show reporters.
 

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I thought it was cause Canada just didn't want to get involved or something..
 

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Originally posted by RealNames


Miles, Canada sending troops to Afghan was great and too bad some were killed. But what's Canada doing about it at home? I viewed a long TV show report on Canada and how many terrorists can easily penetrate the US from Canada.

They said it was because Canada is very soft and easy and lets most anyone in the country. Does not even do any background checks on immigrants, letting most everyone in from every country, including suspected terrorists from what was said.

The US has tried asking Canada to tighten up on it but it falls on deaf ears up north as the govt is extremely liberal in that regard, according to the TV show reporters.

Canada indeed has problems enforcing good security with regards to immigration, but America hasn't done all that much better. Remember that most of the 9/11 hijackers came to the U.S. through routes other than Canada, and many of them lived in the U.S. for years.

A number of well-reported incompetencies by U.S. authorities helped the hijackers to succeed.

An FBI offical's investigation of some of the hijackers was obstructed:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/06/06/terror.lapses/

An FBI informant was even a roommate of two of the hijackers, and the CIA and the FBI have been fighting for months over who dropped the ball on this one:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/805186.asp

As for Canadians opposing the war...yes, a majority of us do, but it seems were not alone. Many Americans are also against this tremendously unjust war, were it to occur, including a number of high-profile polictical and military leaders.

Retiring G.O.P. House majority leader Dick Armey, no wilting flower, says "I don't believe that America will justifiably make an unprovoked attack on another nation," he said. "It would not be consistent with what we have been as a nation or what we should be as a nation."

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/09/i...Q.html?ex=1029873100&ei=1&en=8febfd31285dbf9c
(free registration required)

Brent Scowcroft, national security advisor under Presidents Ford and Bush Sr., says "Don't Attack Saddam."

http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/02.08/0823scowcroft_saddam.htm

Retired U.S. General Anthony Zinni says, "Attacking Iraq now will cause a lot of problems."

http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/zinni.html

And Colin Powell's efforts to prevent a war against Iraq have been widely reported in the media.

Clearly, opposition to an illegal and immoral war against Iraq is not just a Canadian sentiment. A very large numbe of people around the world oppose this action, and many among America's leaders, including those in the military, also oppose going to war against Iraq.

Miles
 

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Let me put it this way:
I would hate to see Iraqi's die as much as I would to see Americans die - no need.

Saddam - I know will die - just do not rush it, he is so evil but death will visit him soon.

Yes - he is one trully evil person - but just please do not help Saddam with more wars, wars are fun for him. He starts wars and would love anyone starting another war for him.

Peace.
 

AMERICAR

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Be in the chat on Sept 11 .. thats where we were last Year

at Afternic chat room.. probably one of the first places to hear of the attack in the World.

And a lota people showed up to find out what was happening.

:(
 

urlguru

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The Clinton and Bush administrations are still receiving flack for not acting on hints and tips about alQuida and events that lead up to September 11th.

Now some of the same people are saying don't act on Saddam, what should we wait until another tragedy for such an attack to be justified?

just my $.02

urlguru
 

DnPowerful

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This is an issue that so divides and complicates, and so bleeds the boundries between the Old World and The New World, that it's amazing any thoughtful person can find any ground of conviction. I find Miles' post an excellent one, and yet...

Mark Steyn had an excellent column in The National Post a few weeks back in which he eviscerated Scowcroft, Armey and many other former GOP hawks, noting that the traditional deterrents ("zero sum gain", "detente") are meaningless to the crowd of terrorists who play outside the boundries of civil society.

Some months back, the New Yorker had an unbelievably sad piece about a reporter who gained access to the major Kurdish villages, and the literally thousands of horror stories of immediate and delayed genocide that Saddam perpetrated on the Kurds. You *hear* about it, and you shudder, then you read a reporter's first hand reports and all you can think is...Get that mother****er before he gasses another 10,000...

Yet I personally think that the repurcussions of an attack will be enormous, and the situation will quickly get out of control. I also agree with Miles that international law will be completely usurped, however one has to wonder whether the US has become the de facto international enforcer--rightly or wrongly.

Ritter was on CNN this morning, a rare moment of reflection by CNN's editors to let an opposing voice have his say. Paula Zahn could hardly formulate a question worthy of this guy's insight....

I think ultimately that if you believe that there is a new crowd of nuts that will operate outside the boundries of civil society (yes, there always has been, but never with so much leverage) then perhaps you feel uncomfortable about bypassing international law (thereby opening the door for other power forces to create "regime change" while pointing the finger back at the U.S.) but you think quite simply that Saddam threatens all of us.

I think the traditional argument between Canadian pacifists and US "liberators" is irrelevant here. Canadians are as terrified of this nut as the US, and everyone has to measure their responses equally in this global soup we're all living in.

Miles, thanks for all the great links and info.
 

buddy

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hope we do attack. saddam is almost definetely trying to develop nuclear warheads, its only a matter of time before he is able to do so. Once that happens, no one is safe. If we invade his country, do a couple billion dollars worth of damage, then it will be hard for him to finance his nuclear and chemical research program.

Before attacking Iraq there are many factors to be considered. You take down Saddam Hussein and you replace him with what/who?

You have to remember that we are talking about a country who hardly experienced any democracy throughout its history. The US can not afford to do the same mistake they did in Afghanistan, when they were aiding the Afghans in their fight for liberation against the former Soviet Union. Once the war was over, the US withdraw all its pepole and aid from Afghanistan. It was at a point when actully US aid was needed the most. The Afghans needed help from someone to guide them into making their country into a model democratic rule and elections. Afghanistan was a country run by various war lords, and it is still today to some extent.

Maybe things would have been different today in Afghanistan if US has not stopped aiding them. We all know what happened next. The Taleban took over to later give refuge to Bin Laden.

Like I said, before an attack I think it is crucial that US, UK, and the rest of the countries involved, has laid out a detailed plan of how Iraq will be run adn by whom. Most importantly the new system, as well as the people considered as candidates for ruling the country. Must have the backing and approval of the majority of the people living there. Otherwise we will have a new Saddam Hussein emerge from the masses.

Thanks!
 

Guest
I have been following the "war on terrorism," since day one, and this article, by veteran foreign correspondent Eric Margolis, is the single best summary I've yet seen on the entire situation, and why Americans need to look at their own foreign policy as the most significant contributor to terrorism.

I usually don't like to repost entire articles in forums, but this piece is just too important:

********************************************

Uncertainties Abound In Pinpointing The Real Enemy

By ERIC MARGOLIS -- Contributing Foreign Editor

PARIS -- A year after the 9/11 attacks on the United States, we know remarkably little about the attackers, or about who really organized the complex operation that seems well beyond the capabilities of amateur terrorists. Among the major questions:

* The suicide attackers were apparently middle-class Saudis, though some identities are still in question. They were quiet, well-educated, "westernized" technical students living in Hamburg, Germany, whose links to the bin Laden Afghan-based al-Qaida remain uncertain. Part of the attack planning was done in Spain. The men who piloted the doomed aircraft were trained at American flying schools. Some may have briefly visited Afghanistan, but none resided there or were known al-Qaida members. Were they sent by Osama bin Laden? Bin Laden lauded the attacks that murdered 3,000 civilians, but denied involvement, though a trail of circumstantial evidence leads to him.

* Al-Qaida is portrayed by the U.S. government and media as an octopoid, world-wide conspiracy with thousands of members. In fact, Qaida - which began as a guest-house for holy warriors during the 1980s anti-Soviet struggle in Afghanistan, never numbered more than 1,000 men, and usually much less. Today, there are probably only 300 or so hardline Qaida members, scattered mainly in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Europe. But there are numerous other underground, militant Islamic groups that align themselves from time to time with Qaida, or draw inspiration from bin Laden's fiery preachings. Such fighting groups as Egyptian Jihad, Gamma Islamiya, and Algeria's Armed Islamic Groups, have formed a loose anti-American/anti-Israel alliance of convenience. But other Islamic groups, notably Lebanon's Hezbollah, have nothing to do with al-Qaida. Nor do Iraq and Syria, whose rulers have been targets of bin Laden's wrath for a decade.

Taliban and a variety of Muslim resistance groups - Kashmiri independence fighters, anti-communist insurgents from Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, Filipino Moros, and Uighurs fighting China's ethnic absorption of Eastern Turkestan (Chinese Sinjiang), have all been lumped together as "Qaida." Some of these Islamic International Brigades were trained in old Afghan camps originally funded by CIA. Others went through two service support and commando training camps run by al-Qaida - a sort of Islamic version of Ft. Bragg, home of the U.S. Green Berets. The biggest camps were not run by Qaida, but by ISI - Pakistani intelligence - preparing holy warriors, or "jihadis," for combat in Indian-held Kashmir. Many of the 1,000 prisoners captured and murdered by Uzbek forces of Gen. Rashid Dostam - assisted by U.S. Special Forces - were from the international brigades.

* President George Bush claimed America was attacked because the assailants "hated" democracy and America's way of life. He describes terrorism as pure evil, unrelated to any specific political events. This is nonsense. The U.S. was attacked because of its deep involvement in Mideast affairs, and total backing for Israel's iron-fisted repression of the Palestinians. In July, Washington agreed to Israel's request to replenish huge amounts of heavy munitions used in crushing the Palestinian intifada. These included $80 million US worth of TOW heavy anti-tank missiles to be fired at buildings, tank shells packed with thousands of razor-sharp flechettes, and Hellfire air-to-ground missiles. Israel reportedly used more heavy munitions against Palestinians in one week last April than it expended in the previous 20 years. American money and weapons kill Arabs, Arabs kill Americans.

Bin Laden arrogated to himself the right to champion revenge against the United States for the bloodbath in Palestine. "There will be no peace in America," bin Laden warned, "until there is peace in Palestine." These frightening words were never widely reported in the North American media, which is filled with uninformed commentators explaining why Muslims are inherently bloodthirsty or anti-western. America's virtual military occupation of Saudi Arabia, its punishment of Iraq that caused at least 500,000 civilian deaths, and Bush's planned jihad against Iraq have enraged the entire Islamic world against the United States. There is little doubt more attacks against American targets will be coming. Such is the cost of empire.

* Did the 9/11 perpetrators foresee the immense damage they would inflict on the United States? Besides the 3,000 Americans murdered, $70 billion in property losses; $10 billion so far of airline losses; insurance rates across the U.S. soaring by up to 300%. 9/11 helped puncture the stock market tech bubble that brought $3 trillion in equity losses that cost 160,000 jobs. The next attack on the U.S. may be designed to cause more economic mayhem rather than kill people, targeting telecommunications nodes, power systems and airports.


* 9/11 triggered a psychotic episode in the Bush administration, producing a futile invasion of Afghanistan; plans for war against Iraq, and possibly Iran, spurred by the embarrassing failure to find bin Laden or crush al-Qaida. A massive, $32-billion increase to a preposterous $396-billion defence budget - 36% of total world military spending - as the deficit soars towards $150 billion. And Bush's crass rejection of international accords on criminal justice, free trade, environmental protection, disarmament, and human rights has damaged America's good name abroad. The rest of the world, deeply dismayed, wonders when the Bush administration will recover its senses.

http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_sep8.html
 

buddy

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Great article Miles. I agree that was a very good summary of the situation. Probably like you said, the best out there. There was a lot of truth in it. If you have not already read it, I would recommend that you read the book called Taliban by Ahmed Rashid. This is probably the best book out there about Al Qaeda and the Talibans. He takes a very neutral stand, and really explains a lot of important issues into the slightest detail, and he has solid facts to back it up. Rashid has met both with Omar Mullan (Taleban leader) and with Osama Bin Laden. There is a lot of great stuff and a lot of surprises. There are many things the public is unaware of. Sometimes it is not as easy or clear as it seems. Too many things are hidden in the dark.

Hopfully, there will be a peaceful ending to it all, which I doubt. Starting a war against Iraq will certainly not help, but right now it seems inevitable. Only God knows what will happen then.

God Bless!
 

devolution

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I was watching a programme I had recorded last year, Top Ten Sci-Fi - it was about the top 10 Sci-Fi series on TV, and of course Trek was No. 1, but what was funny and pertinent now is that one of the crew they interviewed said "Star Trek is an instrument for American Foregin Policy.... They have a Prime Directive, of Non-Inteference.... and they seem to break it every week..."

Beam us up Blair... Set Phasers on Armageddon Bush...
 

DnPowerful

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..rightly solemn and sad as it is, if you need a laugh to relieve the endless footage, go to this sight and read these cartoons--every one of them.

Very funny, in a sad and sarcastic way.

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war.html
 

heatfan

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Originally posted by kvinsencius


Like I said, before an attack I think it is crucial that US, UK, and the rest of the countries involved, has laid out a detailed plan of how Iraq will be run adn by whom. Most importantly the new system, as well as the people considered as candidates for ruling the country. Must have the backing and approval of the majority of the people living there. Otherwise we will have a new Saddam Hussein emerge from the masses.

Thanks!


I believe current U.S. administration will go for old recipe, they will install new puppet dictator, aka known as Karzai 2.
No "democracy" (whatever that means) for Iraq, not in a milion years... You see it is purely theoretical question..
Would you rather have loyal dictator or "democracy" in a country that is strategic for U.S. (read oil).
With democracy, you never know what new government will do in 4 years, will they be left, right, extreme etc... What if new "democratic" government decides that they will not sell oil to U.S., they will only sell it to Europe and China (speaking purely hypoteticaly)...
Nope, the last thing U.S. wants in middle East is "democratic" countries...


Regards
 
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