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rights to use expired name?

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thejosh

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Let’s say that someone owned a generic, non-trademarked name such as SamsSaltwaterFish.com, and for many years had used this site to discuss saltwater fish. One day Sam let this name expire and drop.

If I were to obtain this name can I use this domain name to target the exact same industry and market? I would of course create my own unique content, graphics, and not use anything from the previous site.

I would appreciate hearing your thoughts…
 
Dynadot - Expired Domain Auctions

Dave Zan

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Assuming no one's in the process of demonstrating trademark rights specifically,
I don't see why not.

But I'm just assuming, which I can be wrong of course.
 

jberryhill

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Brett Lewis

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I hate to disagree with John. I have a problem with the idea of snapping up expired trademarked domain names as a legitimate business practice. The practice carries with it either direct knowledge or willful ignorance of the exploitation of trademark rights.

Although there are situations where registering dropped domain names is a legitimate practice, where the prior registrant possessed trademark rights in the dropped name, many panels have found bad faith and transferred the domain name back to the original holder. See Earth Forums c/o Rick Papaleo v. Lee Yi, No. FA143702, at*5-6 (NAF March 7, 2003) (“Registering Complainant’s domain name for its own purpose is strong evidence that Respondent registered and used the disputed domain name in bad faith.”); Lynne Russell v. Kenneth Young, No. D2002-1133, at *7) (WIPO January 21, 2003) (Panel held that it was “not necessary for the disputed domain name to be registered immediately after its registration expired in order to justify a finding of bad faith or cybersquatting,” where 20 days elapsed between expiration and registration by the respondent.); accord Cactus Restaurants Ltd. V. Web Master, FA: 671297 (Nat. Arb. Forum May 23, 2006).

As with everything UDRP, there are decisions going both ways. Mostly, it comes down to the panelists' individual preferences and the specific facts of the case. Your best bet is probably to wait a reasonable amount of time to see if the prior owner expresses any interest in recovering the domain name. If not, you may more safely decide that she has abandoned the intent to use it.


Brett E. Lewis, Esq.
www.lewishand.com
 

Dave Zan

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That's why the OP asked about a non-trademarked domain name. :-D

Supposedly non-trademarked, anyway. But that's for the OP to figure out.
 

DNQuest.com

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I might regret this....

SamsSaltwaterFish.com

This is the example given for this post, I do not see this in the dictionary. Even though someone may say it is "generic", it can in fact be a TM.
 

BlueSkies

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Brett (or anyone),

Would it help the new registrant of a trademarked domain name (in a possible future ICANN case) if the new registrant contacted the previous owner BEFORE the domain name expired - to alert them of the pending expiration?

The thinking would be that the previous owner would not then be able to claim ignorance of what was about to happen - that they made a willful decision to abandon their trademarked domain name.

If this does help the new registrant, would a copy of an e-mail sent to the owner of record serve as sufficient proof of this notification?

There is a domain about to drop for a well trafficked web site with TM rights.
I feel sorry for the owner and intend to alert them. Of course, if the domain drops anyway, as a domaineer I am interested in picking up the droppped domain.

BlueSkies
 
D

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...
As with everything UDRP, there are decisions going both ways. Mostly, it comes down to the panelists' individual preferences and the specific facts of the case.

...
Brett E. Lewis, Esq.
www.lewishand.com

The problem with the UDRP is that there is no appeal mechanism except tasking cases to court. As a result the unverse of decisions gets wider and wider unlike a normal court situation where issues are appealed and, over time, the issues gets narrowed. This has happened to some extent but the UDRP decisions allow panels to pursue their personal preferences rather than a legitimate review of the issues. Often this "persoanl preference" is really a conflict of interest because, in some cases, the "panel" is in business of representing trademark holders. I have read several WIPO panelists were fired for doing this. In the case of NAF it seems to be a business to generate UDRP's as a source of income. In some cases you can tell right away this is happenening because many issues have a list of decisions that go both ways. When a panel only mentions the decions that fit their decision it is hard to believe it was arrived at in a legitimate manner.

As for withing for some period of time, that has already been done by the time the domain is registered. I am sure you are aware there is both a deactiviation period and a redemption period so the waiting periods are already built in. If these panels are so quick to "return" a domain they should explain how the domain could have been used as a trademark if during all this time it went unnoticed that the domain did not work. I guess there could be some circumsatances where there was an intent to use application filed but in most cases it seems to be ridiculous and I doubt such an argument would pass muster if it were a USPTO TTAB proceeding.
 

mgstudent

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The example of SamsSaltwaterFish.com is definitely a trademark.

Now in the UK/EU there are registered / unregistered trademarks. Even still unregistered trademarks have a right to protect themselves.

If they have established themselves in anyway, including trading with the old domain then they may still have rights, even if their trademark isn't registered.


One other thing that you must be careful of (now this is just my brief experience of UK law) is "passing-off" which carries heavier penalties than trademark infringement.

If in the example you gave of SamsSaltwaterFish.com, you were to sell fish in a wrapper with SamsSaltwaterFish printed on it, some consumers may assume that this product is from the original owner of the domain/business.

Then the original owner may have a right to prosecute you for passing off, a bit like me sewing my own Nike's and selling them (but to a less obvious degree!)

If you were to use the name to target a different market / industry then that would help. If the previous owner hadn't owned it for years that would help too (but he has established his name - in effect his trademark, registered or unregistered)

side note (maybe just UK) you can use TM sign next to an unregistered trademark to discourage others from using it, however it isn't necessary. You would use the (r) to signify a registered mark.

Just some thoughts but if the domain is as specific as SamsSaltwaterFish.com then this just seems like an obvious trademark issue and if you already own it, I would play it by ear, but I wouldn't put content for the same market on there immediately. I'd wait to see if you hear anything from the previous owner. Maybe he won't care and never contact you...

be careful.. and good luck.

Mg
 

SuccessClick

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With some experience in TM's involving lawsuits, I have lost TM rights for not responding to a direct TM violation within a 90 day period of time. The infringing company specifically took my productions (it was a live show) name, and used it and produced shows similar to my previous shows. I lost the fight for it back because I waited more than 90 days to contest the TM.

In reality, unless the company that lost the domain name files a TM lawsuit against you within 180 days, they've pretty much lost it. And... if they have a good attorney, that attorney will know that ICANN will resolve the issue for a $1500 fee. If the attorney convinces the company to sue for a domain name before approaching ICANN first, then the attorney is ripping the client off.

If the company allowed their domain name to expire, and didn't do any due diligence or follow any mitigating procedures to try and recover it, the courts will allow for their failure and give the domain to the new owner (you).

Additionally, if you only paid a few hundred dollars for the domain, most companies (if they're knowledgeable about ICANN) will offer you the $1500 max to buy the domain back, because it will cost them that much (at a minimum) to put it in front of ICANN review board. So you're ahead anyways, however you look at it.

I wouldn't buy any domains that crossed possible paths with Fortune 1000 companies, who have armies of attorneys on retainer, just looking for a fight. However, "samssaltwaterfish.com"? You could say your name is Sam, that is your brand, too bad for the old Sam.

Buy domains that seem like small companies have failed to renew, resell them for a few hundred dollars if they want them back. It's called "foreclosure" in the real estate world, and nobody blinks an eye. The registrars charge from $150 - $200 for RGP domains anyway...

I'm not an attorney, please seek attorney advice (I like Stephen Sturgeon) to get a pro opinion. I am a domain consultant though, and have experience in these areas.

good luck
 

Dave Zan

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There is a domain about to drop for a well trafficked web site with TM rights.

I feel sorry for the owner and intend to alert them. Of course, if the domain drops anyway, as a domaineer I am interested in picking up the droppped domain.

So make up your mind already. Do you want to do the registrant a favor or get
the darn name for your purposes?
 

jberryhill

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I hate to disagree with John. I have a problem with the idea of snapping up expired trademarked domain names as a legitimate business practice.

Well, I merely posted a quote. Whether there is, or is not, a trademark, and whether the domain is, or is not, used for competitive G&S obviously makes a difference.

One can fail to renew one's domain name, just as one can fail to renew one's federal trademark registration, or fail to pay maintenance fees for a patent, or fail to pay one's rent on a store in the shopping mall.

Now, if you don't renew the lease on your shoe store, the landlord will evict you, and I can certainly move into the space and open a new shoe store. We see this all of the time in the real world.

Maintenance of rights requires some diligence on the part of the person who claims those rights.

I probably should have quoted the larger context, and note the bold portion:

http://domains.adrforum.com/domains/decisions/114434.htm
Respondent waits for domain names incorporating common words, generic terms, short terms and useful phrases to be released after their registration has lapsed. Then Respondent immediately registers those names and uses each of them to host a generic portal web site, presumably gaining revenue from banner advertisements and affiliate links. This activity has not been found to be bad faith registration or use under the UDRP unless the selection of the domain name and the manner in which it is used are related to its correspondence to Complainant's trademark. It has been held that a party is entitled to conduct a business of capturing generic domain names which become available in the marketplace, often through failure to renew registration. See Canned Foods Inc. v. Ult. Search Inc., FA 96320 (Nat. Arb. Forum Feb. 13, 2001); First American Funds v. Ult. Search, D2000-1840 (WIPO Apr. 20, 2001); GLB Services Interactivos S.A. v. Ultimate Search, Inc., D2002-0189 (WIPO May 29, 2002).

One recent example that crossed my desk is that of a top-five global pharmaceutical company which allowed the generic name of <drug>.com to expire. They are the leading manufacturer of this drug, which they sell under a particular trademark, but the domain name in question is on the INN list (International Non-Proprietary Name) of pharmaceuticals. It is, by definition, a generic term.

First, their in-house counsel sent a threat. I told him to go pound sand. Then, they went through two successive outside firms to send threats, and I've told them both to go pound sand.

In order to allow a domain name to expire, you have to ignore repeated renewal notices from the registrar, and then fail to take advantage of the redemption period during which the domain is de-activated and you are the only person on the planet with the right to renew it. It takes a determined sort of lapse of diligence to "inadvertently" fail to renew a domain name. Most of the time, they will claim that the renewal notices weren't received because the contact information was stale. Translation: they were in breach of the registration contract terms requiring them to maintain current and correct contact data, and thus were not entitled to registration of the domain name during the period their data was out of date.

If I want to keep trespassers off of my land, it is up to me to put up signs, a fence, etc. It is up to me to go after trespassers. It is not the rest of the world's business to police my rights.

As long as we're on the subject of fish, consider:

http://www.arb-forum.com/domains/decisions/94870.htm

<keywestseafoodmarket.com>

Now, whether "Key West Seafood Market" is, or is not, distinctive of any particular seafood market in Key West, is not a simple question. Since it was a default by the Respondent, the panelist went ahead and ordered "cancellation" of the domain name.

This was back in the days when I would pick up UDPR cancelled names, and turn them into tombstones to the stupidity of "cancellation" as a UDRP remedy.

So, I put up one of my "UDRP Cancelled Names" pages:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001206203000/http://www.keywestseafoodmarket.com/

A few months later, I was contacted by the attorney for the Key West Seafood Market people. She was very nice, and I agreed to transfer the domain name to her client, having had my chuckle. I changed the page to this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020604032141/http://www.keywestseafoodmarket.com/

Then, I set the whois data to that of a domain name already registered by her client, and sent them complete instructions for transferring the domain name to themselves. After a LOT of back-n-forth email over a period of several months, it became clear that they were simply too ignorant of the basics of registering a domain name to competently take control of the name. I'm not saying they were objectively "stupid" in any sense, as nobody is born knowing how to manage a domain name, but it was clear that it was like trying to hand a set of car keys to someone who didn't know the first thing about driving a car.

Another thing to keep in mind with these "inadvertent expirations" is that domain names can be registered for terms of TEN FREAKING YEARS!

What idiot... What utter clueless moron... invests a pile of money into his business, buys or leases property, enters into secured loans on inventory for years at a time... and then waits until the last minute to renew his/her domain name on a year-to-year basis.

There just has to be some level at which a domain registrant is held to a standard of care for looking after their own interest.

Am I entitled to drive down the street looking for pedestrians to run over? No. Am I liable for running over some guy who gets drunk and then dashes out into the highway in front of my car in the middle of the night? No.

I have seen people work dawn to night poring over lists of dropping names, and carefully managing a budget for acquiring them, targeting them, and maintaining them. People who pop up out of the woodwork with "I'm too stupid to renew a domain name, even when there are several second-chances" are a time-consuming and distracting nuisance. On top of that, the volume of such claims which are not entirely honest, requires time to evaluate and sort out the good, the bad, and the ugly. Some of these people behave as if they have the right to offload the burden and cost of their own irresponsibility upon others, and when they behave arrogantly and imperiously about it, then, absolutely I set the flamethrower on flambe' to a crispy crunch.

SamsSaltwaterFish.com

This is the example given for this post, I do not see this in the dictionary. Even though someone may say it is "generic", it can in fact be a TM.

Bingo. That is THE biggest problem encountered in DNForum threads on TM issues generally - whether or not "X" is "generic". The term "generic" has a very narrow definition in trademark law; much narrower than what quite a few DNForum posters seem to grasp.

"Sam's Saltwater Fish" is not generic. It might, or might not, be distinctive, depending on how many people named Sam are using their name as an indicator of source or origin of goods and services relating to saltwater fish in a relevant market.

I guess what's got me going here are situations involving what are called "arbitrary" marks. These are words which have a generic meaning, but are arbitrarily applied to G&S in a non-generic or descriptive sense. My favorite example is "Shell" for petroleum products. It's one thing to say "You shouldn't re-register trademarked names" but that ignores that a name is half of what makes a trademark. A trademark is:

(Name) + (Goods and/or Services)

So, if Shell Oil allows shell.com to expire, and you pick it up and use it to sell seashells, you have every right to do that, regardless of whether "SHELL" is a trademark, and a very strong and famous one, for petroleum products.
 

jberryhill

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One other example of what gets my goat in these situations:

wbw.com:
http://www.arb-forum.com/domains/decisions/98813.htm

That dispute really teed me off. The domain name wbw.com belonged to a bicycle shop called Windsurf Bicycle Warehouse. The bicycle shop apparently went out of business, and the domain name was re-registered upon expiration.

Then along comes a collection agency, Williams Babbit and Weisman, which started going on about "their" domain name, claiming:

In April 2001 a “whois database search” showed that the <wbw.com> domain name registration had expired. The bicycle company was no longer in business.

Complainant attempted to watch for the domain’s release but before Complainant could register the domain name <wbw.com>, Respondent registered the domain name.

Respondent is registering expired domain names as they immediately become available.

Respondent is attempting to drive traffic to their site by hijacking unsuspecting web users looking for legitimate companies.


Now, just who is trying to "hi-jack" what here? Obviously, the domain name was used for a bicycle business for years, so anybody going to wbw.com was, most likely, looking for the bicycle shop. Does it make any more sense to say that the respondent was "hi-jacking" that traffic, since the bike shop no longer existed; or that the Complainant wanted to "hi-jack" that traffic since, obviously, nobody looking for the bike shop was going to find a bike shop no matter WHO had the domain name.

I mean look again at this allegation of "bad faith":

Respondent is registering expired domain names as they immediately become available.


Isn't that the same thing the Complainant wanted to do? It just slays me when the "bad faith" allegation boils down to "the Respondent was better than us at doing the same G-D thing."

It was a very similar deal in the pwc.com dispute. The domain name pwc.com had been used for years by the US Navy Public Works Center. I could not for the life of me figure out why, upon expiration of the domain name by the US Navy, the subsequent use of pwc.com to advertise personal watercraft (pwc is the generic term for jet-ski's and the like) was suddenly a "diversion" from PriceWaterhouseCoopers, when it had not been a "diversion" for someone else entirely to have been using the domain name for five years prior to that.

http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2002/d2002-0087.html

(c) the domain name in dispute had already been registered to another party since 1995, at the time of the Complainant’s formative merger in 1998, and the Complainant knew that even if it intended to establish "pwc" as a trademark, the corresponding domain name had been registered to, and was used by, the United States Naval Public Works Center since 1995, up to the date of the expiration of a service contract between the US Navy and the prior administrative contact for the domain name, who provided various Internet services to the Navy in connection with the <pwc.com> domain name. References to the domain name <pwc.com> relative to the Naval Public Works Center still abound on the Internet;

(d) the Respondent has quite a number of domain names. To reduce the likelihood of potential disputes, the Respondent primarily seeks to register domain names of inherent value which expire from registration. Registering such domain names is intended to avoid trademark conflicts since the most logical operative assumptions are (a) that the prior registrant has abandoned any claim to the name by allowing it to expire, and (b) that any third party claim to such a domain name would have been asserted and resolved by the diligent claimant during the previous registration term. The Respondent’s legitimate rights and interests include a reasonable reliance interest in the previous years of inaction by the Complainant, and the subsequent abandonment of the domain name by the US Navy;


The stellar chuckle in the pwc.com dispute was the fact that, even as the UDRP was in progress, Pratt & Whitney Canada kept sending email about how they could obtain "their" domain name. All sorts of folks had said "Well, gosh PWC clearly belongs to PriceWaterhouseCoopers". Oh yeah? Go check out www.pwc.ca sometime.

So I get pretty jaded about correspondence which says, "You have our domain name..." My first reaction is to look at the WHOIS data and say, "Well, golly, it sure doesn't LOOK like your domain name."
 

duceman

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Thanks for taking the time to share a few of your experiences with us John.

I for one truly appreciate you sharing.
 

mgstudent

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There are many who appreciate the time taken by people to share their experiences.

This topic is particularly interesting as it is one of (if not THE sharpest) end of the sword that can hurt domainers. (ok so I might have stretched that metaphor).

But seriously. Maybe I one day will spend $5000, $10000, or even $20000 on a domain. To then be involved in such a dispute is my worst nightmare...

For a significant part of my savings to be invested in a domain such as wbw.com (which automatically I would assume is a safe name - being an acronym - who can own that trademark universally?) and them for a dispute to arise over it.... it would kill me :veryangry: :upset: :sigh2: :eek:

Are there any domains out there that are completely safe?
If acronyms aren't safe maybe generic names aren't as safe as we think (especially if someone has built a business with a generic name, lets it drop, and we pick it up in a competing business to them... then maybe they want it back....

Anyone have any similar experiences to this?
 

Brett Lewis

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Would it help the new registrant of a trademarked domain name (in a possible future ICANN case) if the new registrant contacted the previous owner BEFORE the domain name expired - to alert them of the pending expiration?

I think it would help. In that case, there is a much stronger argument that the former owner chose to allow the domain name to lapse. If the prior registrant maintains trademark uses offline, you would still need to make sure that your use of the domain name was not infringing, and there is still the possibility of them coming after the domain, although you would have done a very honorable thing in notifying them first.

Brett Lewis, Esq.
www.lewishand.com

As for withing for some period of time, that has already been done by the time the domain is registered. I am sure you are aware there is both a deactiviation period and a redemption period so the waiting periods are already built in. If these panels are so quick to "return" a domain they should explain how the domain could have been used as a trademark if during all this time it went unnoticed that the domain did not work. I guess there could be some circumsatances where there was an intent to use application filed but in most cases it seems to be ridiculous and I doubt such an argument would pass muster if it were a USPTO TTAB proceeding.

I have seen bad decisions go both ways. Domains are not always deactivated before they are deleted. Sometimes, the DNS continues to function up until the auction.

B.E.L., Esq.
www.lewishand.com

What idiot... What utter clueless moron... invests a pile of money into his business, buys or leases property, enters into secured loans on inventory for years at a time... and then waits until the last minute to renew his/her domain name on a year-to-year basis.

I have had a number of clients lose domain names due to registrar error. These people did nothing wrong. It can be tricky sifting through how names were lost, but is worth the effort.

If we are talking about <Shell.com>, it is difficult to see how the registrant could have registered the domain name without knowing who had previously possessed it. That's the rub. If someone registers <shell.com>, with knowledge of Sell Oil's prior use, and the intent to profit off of their Web traffic, I do not have a hard time classifying that as a violation of the ACPA. The less known the trademark, the more difficult the question becomes. Panels have held that the same sophisticated individuals who meticulously monitor drop lists can also be expected to invest a modicum of due dilligence to assure that the domain names that they are registering are not being used as trademarks. Can someone register and use a domain name, with its resulting Web traffic, for a profit, with the knowledge that the domain name was previously used as a trademark? Would they not be profitting from the goodwill of that mark?

I agree that in some situations, it is not easy to know whether a domain name has truly been abandoned, but there is some responsibility to find out. The same Services Agreements that require accurate contact information also require representations of non-infringement. The key for me really comes in the new registrant's response to the former owner's request to return the domain name. If someone tries to extort the trademark holder by demanding some exorbitant sum, it is usually clear what their intention was.

I think we could trade decisions all day. Here is some language from the Earth Forums decision:

Complainant originally registered the <earthforums.com> domain name three years ago, and used it consistently until its registration was inadvertently allowed to lapse. Respondent’s immediate registration of the disputed domain name after Complainant’s registration expired is evidence that Respondent lacks rights or legitimate interests in the domain name. In coming to this conclusion, the Panel notes that other domain names incorporating the EARTH FORUMS mark with a different generic top-level domain were available for registration at the time that Respondent deliberately chose to register Complainant’s lapsed domain name. See Am. Anti-Vivisection Soc’y v. “Infa dot Net” Web Serv., FA 95685 (Nat. Arb. Forum Nov. 6, 2000) (finding that Complainant’s prior registration of the same domain name is a factor in considering Respondent’s rights or legitimate interest in the domain name); see also Tercent Inc. v. Lee Yi, FA 139720 (Nat. Arb. Forum Feb. 10, 2003) (finding that “Respondent’s opportunistic registration of the Complainant’s domain name, within 24 hours of its lapse, weighs strongly in favor of a finding that Respondent has no rights or legitimate interests in the disputed domain name”).

From http://domains.adrforum.com/domains/decisions/671297.htm

Respondent claims that it registered the disputed domain name without any consciousness of infringement, therefore the requisite intent did not exist. However, Respondent has an established business model by which it intends to use the domain for third party content/generation services. It also indicates knowledge that the content, thus generated, is based on traffic records of users who searched for them. Therefore, Respondent should be presumed to know that this practice has a high probability of producing content related to the mark itself. Therefore, Policy ¶ 4(b)(iv) bad faith intent existed at the time of registration. If the disputed domain name were an obscure, little-used search term, then traffic would be minimal and presumably less valuable a domain name to register since it would attract fewer searchers.

If the mark were a single word (cactus or club), the situation could be different since each is a commonly-used word that may be a popular search term in itself. But the combination of the two is not so common.

Examples of bad faith under Para. 4(b)(iv) of the Policy include:

“(iv) by using the domain name, you have intentionally attempted to attract, for commercial gain, Internet users to your web site or other on-line location, by creating a likelihood of confusion with the Complainant’s mark as to the source, sponsorship, affiliation, or endorsement of your web site or location or of a product or service on your web site or location.”

Respondent reveals little of its methodology in the selection of domain names to register, other than declaring that it had no awareness of any trademarks. The Panel does not accept an argument that allows a registrant to ignore potential conflicts simply by burying its head in the sand. Respondent, in the Fox declaration, acknowledges that it engages in a selective process by choosing "common terms." However, common words form the basis of many established trademarks. Therefore, a simple declaration of ignorance does not seem either persuasive or realistic for a business that has already been subjected to at least two UDRP procedures.

Respondent's business model seems rather to encourage selection of domains that reflect existing trademarks as it would clearly be more profitable to select domains that correspond to known and active marks because more users are likely to be searching for information about them. Respondent's intent at registration is to use the domain to earn revenues that increase with the proportion of traffic that visits the site. The Panel thinks it likely that a known trademark will drive more traffic than an unknown common word, and any part of Respondent's business model that is based on traffic levels will likely select in favor of existing marks . Thus, it seems that the registration is intentionally attempting to take advantage of a trademark’s goodwill by creating a likelihood of confusion to users who are using the mark as a search term.

This was a three member Panel, with a favorable respondent advocate who sided against the registrant. Spike Lee said it best.


Brett E. Lewis, Esq.
www.lewishand.com
 
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