Rite of passage - I've been scammed for the first time

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wilfra

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It had to happen eventually...

I agreed to buy two domains and paid via PayPal. Now the domains are listed in my GD account as 'on hold - domain dispute' and the seller is not responding to emails. The purchase was 2-3 days ago.

I see how to open a claim in PayPal and have done so. My question is what are my chances of getting the money back? If they moved the money out of their PayPal account will I still get paid? And if the domains were stolen GoDaddy is going to take them from me, right?

Thanks

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 PM ----------

Something just occurred to me. He asked me to do the payment in two pieces. I actually did it in three. I sent him three separate PayPal payments. Is that some loophole or something in PayPal's rules where he's going to get to keep some of the money? Nobody has ever asked me to do that before...
 

tekz999

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You are quite brave to take make such moves, and it is obviously making 3 separate payments = red alert. So now you have to face the consequence. I suggest you phone both paypal and godaddy and ask for advices, and how to move things forward.
 

bwhhisc

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Paypal is usually no help. I got screwed once buying a website off ebay that had "stolen" content. That was 5 years ago and my last buy on ebay.

I believe it is because paypal wants to limit any negative "statistics" so if they don't assist, they was not a problem and they have a smaller number of "incidents".

Paypal is just plain risky, I don't know any way around it to make it safe. The powers to be don't give a sh*t about you, as you will find out. They have tens of millions of other customers if you are not happy tough!

I sold a domain recently and did use paypal. I got the persons phone number, then their work number and called them there. Still a risk but at least I felt I had a way to contact them if things went south. If there is any serious money involved the ONLY way to go is escrow.com, or dnescrow.com.
 

wilfra

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My understanding was that PayPal is risky for the seller but not the buyer as the buyer can file a claim and get the money back after they have your domain.

I'm curious though if PayPal's policy is to refund the money even if the person has withdrawn it or washed it somehow.
 

clasione

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My understanding was that PayPal is risky for the seller but not the buyer as the buyer can file a claim and get the money back after they have your domain.

I'm curious though if PayPal's policy is to refund the money even if the person has withdrawn it or washed it somehow.

I kinda agree with this and think I would assume the same thing...
I think as the buyer, you've got better chances of getting your money back...
I would worry more about giving the name and then seeing a chargeback.
 

Gerry

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I see how to open a claim in PayPal and have done so. My question is what are my chances of getting the money back? If they moved the money out of their PayPal account will I still get paid? And if the domains were stolen GoDaddy is going to take them from me, right?
You have ZERO chance of getting your money back.

Domains are deemed "non-tangible" property. PayPal will not even waste their time investigating.

You will most likely get a notice to this policy within 24 hours .

I speak from experience.


And for those that think you are offered some protection paying PayPal via Credit Card? Wrong.

While you may initially be granted a reversal by your credit card company, PayPal will at some point resubmit the payment and also tell the credit card company what their (PayPal) policy is on this. And credit cards will rebill you for the amount.

Again, I speak from experience.

---------- Post added at 11:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 PM ----------

My understanding was that PayPal is risky for the seller but not the buyer as the buyer can file a claim and get the money back after they have your domain.

I'm curious though if PayPal's policy is to refund the money even if the person has withdrawn it or washed it somehow.
See my post above.

It does not matter if you are the seller or the buyer.

Paid for domains that you never received? File a dispute with PayPal - too bad.
Sell domains that the buyer does a reverse payment on? File a dispute with PayPal - too bad.

PayPal will not investigate the matter if it involves non-tangible goods.

They will close the dispute and there is no appeal.

Tough lessons to learn.
 

wilfra

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You seem to be contradicting yourself:

Sell domains that the buyer does a reverse payment on? File a dispute with PayPal - too bad.

By 'reverse payment' you are referring to them filing a claim with PayPal or their credit card company, right?

So how come it works for them but it wont work for me? The only difference between me and your example is that I'm not trying to steal the domains.

PayPal will not investigate the matter if it involves non-tangible goods.

They will close the dispute and there is no appeal.

Again, why does it work for the domain thief in your example but it wont work for me?
 

Theo

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Who is the seller? You need to inform others about this scammer by identifying him.
 

Gerry

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Again, why does it work for the domain thief in your example but it wont work for me?
Because it is not investigated, there is no real proof that a transaction took place.

If someone files with their credit card company of a non transaction or goods not received, that credit card company will file for a refund and a refund will be given - because it is NOT INVESTIGATED (deemed non-tangible property).

PayPal is all too aware of credit card fraud. Other forms of non-tangible property is any downloadable item. All a person has to do is claim that someone fraudulently used their credit card number. PayPal knows this happens all the time and will work with credit card companies.

But you as the buyer of domain names, it is YOU, the buyer who is filing directly with PayPal claiming you did not receive goods (non-tangible) paid for via PayPal. As soon as you file a complaint with PayPal, in this case non-tangible property, typically the case is closed almost immediately. Turning around and filing with your credit card company may get you an initial refund but later will only be discovered by PayPal and will be rebilled to the credit card company and ultimately you. PayPal will tell the credit card company telling them that this has been investigated (not really but in terminology it has), the case was closed, and no refund issued.

The same scenario plays out with YOU, the seller. You sell a domain, 30 days later you have that amount taken out of your account. Why? The buyer initiated a claim against charges on his CC and claims he never purchased anything from you. Now, you (the seller) files a claim with PayPal claiming that you don't understand why you are being billed this amount because you sold Mr. XYZ a domain.

Guess what? Case closed. Non-Tangible items are not investigated because there is no substantial proof satisfactory to PayPal. Most non-tangible items go to an email address, not a physical address. Nothing can be tracked, no verification of goods delivered, no physical product (tangible items) were sold. Once more, you were beaten by the system. An action was filed on the other end (buyer) with the credit card company (not paypal), charges reversed and credited to the buyer's card, then PayPal charges you for that amount. You attempt to open case but the case is closed before an investigation even starts.

PayPal wins in every instance whether you are the buyer or the seller in these non-tangible, non-investigated matters.

In other words, you - as a buyer or a seller - can not complain or file directly to PayPal. When you do, it is assigned a case number and the matter is closed.



You can appeal and tell these people all about domains and how you can track them and how they can use the WHOIS. They will not do it, they will not listen, they will not investigate - Case CLOSED.
 

wilfra

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Doc you are contradicting yourself!

You are saying as a seller I can send my domains to somebody and they file a claim and get their money back and there is nothing I can do about it, right?

Well that is exactly what happened here. He is the seller and I am filing a claim and there should be (as per your example) nothing he can do about it.

In other words, you - as a buyer or a seller - can not complain or file directly to PayPal. When you do, it is assigned a case number and the matter is closed.

Then why does it work when they scam sellers? They are still filing a claim regarding non-tangible property, but according to you PayPal will enforce that for the scammers - but not for me? You are contradicting yourself!

---------- Post added at 12:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 PM ----------

Who is the seller? You need to inform others about this scammer by identifying him.

His name is James E Sandoval, he contacted me via PM on another forum and his account has since been closed on that forum so he must have done this to multiple people as I never turned him in over there.

---------- Post added at 12:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

Because it is not investigated, there is no real proof that a transaction took place.

If someone files with their credit card company of a non transaction or goods not received, that credit card company will file for a refund and a refund will be given - because it is NOT INVESTIGATED (deemed non-tangible property).

Great. All I need to do then is file with my credit card company and everything is fine, right? That doesn't fit in with your other statements but that is the only answer that makes logical sense to me. It can't be that scammers can take our domains and charge back but we can't charge back when we buy domains that were actually never received. The two situations are identical except for the fact that I'm not scamming him...
 

INFORG

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If your seller used a stolen account (likely) or doesn't have a verified account with bank and cc info, moved the money out right away etc., you will likely not be able to get your money back. If they have a verified account, that is tied to their bank and credit card info, PayPal will probably refund your money. The buyer generally has the most leverage regardless of the transaction type. The problem is that the person with the real PayPal account is always at a disadvantage to the scammers.
 

Gerry

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Doc you are contradicting yourself!

You are saying as a seller I can send my domains to somebody and they file a claim and get their money back and there is nothing I can do about it, right?

Well that is exactly what happened here. He is the seller and I am filing a claim and there should be (as per your example) nothing he can do about it.
No, I am not contradicting myself.

I am describing the process how you (whether you are the seller or buyer - two distinct scenarios) get screwed twice - once by the person you are doing business with and once by paypal.

Scenario A - I sell you a name. You pay via PayPal. I do not deliver the name, I ignore all your email, pm's, etc. You get pissed. File for an investigation with PayPal. Investigation is given a case number. Transaction is deemed non-tangible property. PayPal will not investigate non-tangible transaction and will not refund your money. Case closed.

Scenario B - You sell me a name. I pay you via PayPal. Before the next billing cycle hits, I contest (challenge) a charge. Credit Card company notifies PayPal of a charge they (credit card company) will not pay for. Rather than PayPal lose money, they take the money out of your account (To Paypal, it could be illegal use of credit card, stolen card, stolen card number - PayPal does not really care because they will get their money back). You get pissed. File for an investigation with PayPal. Investigation is given a case number. Transaction is deemed non-tangible property. PayPal will not investigate non-tangible transaction and will not refund your money. Case closed.

---------- Post added at 12:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

Great. All I need to do then is file with my credit card company and everything is fine, right? That doesn't fit in with your other statements but that is the only answer that makes logical sense to me. It can't be that scammers can take our domains and charge back but we can't charge back when we buy domains that were actually never received. The two situations are identical except for the fact that I'm not scamming him...
NO! It is not alright. You are not comprehending the scenarios.

As I mentioned, you can file with your credit card company. They may be able to rebill paypal.

BUT,

You opened an investigation with PayPal, correct?
Your investigation was given a case number, correct?
You were told that PayPal does not investigate non-tangible transactions, correct?
You were told that the case is closed, correct?

Now you want to file with your CC. Fine. Do it. You may get an initial refund only to have PayPal rebill the CC by claiming that they have investigated the matter, found it to be non-refundable, will provide a case and transaction number, and will inform the CC that the case was closed.

CC will turn around and bill you again.
 

wilfra

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CC will turn around and bill you again.

If that is the case then sellers would be protected from scammers taking our domains and then filing a charge, right?

If PayPal opens and closes non-tangible goods cases then either legit and fraudulent buyers will always be protected or legit and fraudulent sellers will always be protected. One or the other.

You seem to be saying PayPal always protects the scammers and always screws legit buyers and sellers.

That is the contradiction. It simply isn't possible.
 

Gerry

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If that is the case then sellers would be protected from scammers taking our domains and then filing a charge, right?

If PayPal opens and closes non-tangible goods cases then either legit and fraudulent buyers will always be protected or legit and fraudulent sellers will always be protected. One or the other.

You seem to be saying PayPal always protects the scammers and always screws legit buyers and sellers.

That is the contradiction. It simply isn't possible.
You are still not comprehending how paypal works and what it does and does not investigate, what it does and does not refund for.

You have to understand that PayPal does refund for some things and does not refund for some things. Is that a contradiction?

Plus, I outlined 4 questions to you. Answer each one.


If you take the time to not only read but to comprehend what I have laid out in front of you, perhaps you will have a better understanding that no matter what, PayPal gets their money. No matter what. PayPal protects themselves.

The only way this all will become clear to you is when the process plays out in full right in front of you. If you are lucky to get someone from the Credit Card company to explain all of this to you or perhaps a former PayPal employee to explain this, it will become clear that PayPal protects themself. PayPal would not be in business if all they did is refund money. It is PayPal that will not be scammed.

In my case, after the CC (Chase) was rebilled by PayPal and had to pay, I was rebilled for the charge. Although the person I spoke with fully understood the case and the scenario, there was nothing they could do in terms of resubmitting a claim for refund. The person I spoke with was a higher up dispute team. They fully understood my situation (paid but did not receive goods - aka domain name). They also understood PayPal's stance. The best resolution was a 50/50 split between myself and the CC issuer (Chase).
 

wilfra

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Of your four questions the answer to the first one is yes and the others have not happened yet.

In your case PayPal re-billed you so that money went to the scammer and they closed the case in his favor, as per their policies.

So if that is PayPal's policy, we are vulnerable as buyers - but not as sellers. If we sell a domain and the person tries to file a dispute saying they never got the domain, PayPal will tell them 'we don't investigate non-tangible goods claims' and find in the sellers favor...right?
 

Gerry

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Of your four questions the answer to the first one is yes and the others have not happened yet.

In your case PayPal re-billed you so that money went to the scammer and they closed the case in his favor, as per their policies.

So if that is PayPal's policy, we are vulnerable as buyers - but not as sellers. If we sell a domain and the person tries to file a dispute saying they never got the domain, PayPal will tell them 'we don't investigate non-tangible goods claims' and find in the sellers favor...right?
NO! PayPal did not rebill me. They billed the CC company and the CC company billed me. It was perhaps 2 months after I had gotten the initial disputed money.

The scammer never lost the money as I, as the complainant, requested an investigation. I then disputed the charge. I won on the first dispute. But ultimately lost.

YES! YOU AS A SELLER ARE VULNERABLE Look at scenario B above.

That is what you are not comprehending. You can lose on both sides. You are not protected. PayPal wins, wins, wins.

Not only am I describing how paypal will screw you either way, I am also clearly describing how to scam for domain names and get away with it, whether you sell domains or buy domains.
 

wilfra

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You can lose on both sides

Then you can also win on both sides, right?

PayPal isn't out to screw anybody. They only get their fee, they aren't keeping the disputed money...

---------- Post added at 01:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 PM ----------

What I'm essentially hearing you say is that we are screwed either way, as buyer or seller. If that is true, then the system must be rigged for the scammers to win either way because one party must prevail in these disputes. I find it very hard to believe that the scammers always prevail.
 

Gerry

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Amendment to the PayPal User Agreement
Protection for Buyers.

Section 13 (Protection for Buyers) has been amended to reflect changes in PayPal’s protection for buyers. PayPal Buyer Protection covers eligible buyers for eligible items they purchase from sellers on eBay and, now, off the eBay website if they are not received -“Item Not Received” - or are “Significantly Not as Described.”

The same eligibility requirements apply to buyer’s payments under the expanded PayPal Buyer Protection except that in addition to the existing requirements a buyer can additionally send the payment to the seller by clicking the “Purchase” tab, or by selecting the “Checkout with PayPal” button or otherwise selecting PayPal as part of a Seller’s PayPal checkout flow in order to be eligible.

PayPal Buyer Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following items are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Buyer Protection:
Intangible items, including Digital Goods

Other policies mentioned:

PayPal Buyer Protection only applies to payments for certain tangible, physical goods that can be shipped. Payments for the following are not eligible for re-imbursement under PayPal Buyer Protection:
Any item that is prohibited under the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy
Intangibles
Services
Custom made items
Travel Tickets (including without limitation, airline flight tickets)
Licenses and other access to digital content
Vehicles (including, without limitation, motor vehicles, caravans, aircraft and boats)
Real estate (including, without limitation, residential property)
Businesses
Industrial machinery used in manufacturing
Items which you collect in person, or arrange to be collected on your behalf
Items that violate eBay’s Prohibited or Restricted Items Policy
Items equivalent to cash (including, without limitation, gift cards)
Items purchased using Website Payments Pro or Virtual Terminal (if applicable)
Personal transaction payments

https://www.paypalwarning.com/paypal_does_nothing a copy of an Actual Buyer's Complaint and PayPal response(s).
 

wilfra

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Ok so you are just an anti-PayPal shill, got it.
 

Gerry

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Ok so you are just an anti-PayPal shill, got it.
I have spent quite a bit of time explaining in detail how the system works and have provided examples.

You're welcome.
 
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