The names have been changed to protect the innocent.....and NamePros being unfair???

[humbug1s1k]

Here's the situation:

*Names/member/domain name have been changed just to save embarrassment if they come on here as well.

I put a domain up for auction at Namepros about 4/6 months ago (possibly more). Not a particularly amazing name, I liked it but it wasnt going to help me retire. Auction started at $1 and a long serving member at Namepros eventually won it for $8......like I said, no retirement plans happening with this one! I send a payment PM to the member but dont here anything back, which is a little odd as I have dealt with this particular person before and they have always come across as amicable. However payment is not made for the domain despite trying to get in contact with the winning bidder so I think thats fine Ill just keep it. I'm not one for kicking off unnecessarily so didnt think at the time to contact admin cause the member had been a decent person to deal with, and for $8 it seemed pointless.

Now jump forward a few months, I notice the same name is coming up for renewal.........what to do. I know I'll send a PM to the winning bidder of the previous auction.......here is what was sent and the replies (obviously I have changed their name):



MY INITIAL MESSAGE:

Hi, I seem to remember trying to auction this at one point with yourself being interested, apologises if I have asked this before (cant remember) but are you still interested in the following:

XXXXX.XXX

It is with Godaddy and expires on the 8th Nov 2012

Let me know

regards

Jason

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THEIR REPLY:

Hi Jason
Thanks for remembering us, we are still interested, please shoot me the details...

Best,
XXXXXXX

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BUT THEN 2 MINS LATER THEY SENT:

[Hi Jason
Sorry, we are no longer interested (my better half said No due to short expiry) Good luck with it.

Best,
XXXXXXX

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I think to myself thats fine, they dont want it despite being the winning bidder before and never closing the deal but for the sake of $8 I'm not bothered so I put it up for auction again.........the first bid is $1.......the next bid for $2 is the same person as above!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Despite telling me " we are no longer interested (my better half said No due to short expiry)"

I'm annoyed that someone can be so petty over a few $$'s and I regale my father my the story, which as any father would do, he wants to protect his little boy....(ok in my dreams Im not so little......nearly 40, married twice, blah blah blah......god, I'm nearly 40.....sorry had a moment of clarity, back to the story) so he states that he'll buy the domain and use it for something, to which I tell him that it is up for auction and he will have to bid on it and leave it as that.......

I later find out that he has bid on it......long story short, about 2 hours later I'm, and my father, are both banned for shill bidding, and Im pretty sure that the non-paying and unethical member/bidder is quite happily swanning about Namepros doing the same wherever he can.

Despite having always liked Namepros, I have always been a courteous member, Namepros have NOT replied to 3 messages sent by myself in nearly 24hrs!

Comments would be appreciated.......................was Namepros right to ban me, should they do anything about the other member.......

 

[Biggie]

whether or not they were right or wrong, nothing we can do about it

however....


did you and your father share or use the same "user account" at np?

did you and your father have different accounts at np?


did your father place a bid on your name in this auction?

 

[humbug1s1k]

Oh I appreciate that nothing can be done I am just interested to know what others think, as an honest, generally law abiding citizen, it being insinuated that myself and my father are liars is somewhat annoying.....

Anyway in answer to your questions:

did you and your father share or use the same "user account" at np? No, my father set up a separate account

did you and your father have different accounts at np? Yes, see above


did your father place a bid on your name in this auction? Yes, for $5


I would like to add that Namepros has not replied to any of my messages to them, querying it, but they have had the following back and forth with my father:

Without Prejudice:


------------------------------------------------

On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Product Publicity <[email protected]> wrote:
Sirs
I have this morning opened an account with 'namepros.com and have bid on a webname on your auction site.
On checking the auction for an update my account has been banned for 'shill bidding'
What is shill bidding and why have you cancelled my account?

Roger xxxxxxxx
Product Publicity
xxxxxxxxxx
Rhino Business Park
Fauld
Tutbury
Staffs
xxxxxxxxxx
Tel: xxxxxxxxxxx
mobile: xxxxxxxxxxx
Fax: xxxxxxxxxxx
email:

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NamePros Webmaster <[email protected]> wrote:
I would have been able to respond faster if you had given me your NamePros username so i knew who you were on the forum. However, I have found that your primary account is: humbug1s1k and that you created a second account (against rules) in the name of RHG123 (The IP & Mac address on both accounts show that they came from the same computer), you then used your second account to inflate bids in your own auction for the domain Forumz.biz. This is called shill bidding and a form of fraud (Also against namepros rules). Official definition of shill bidding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill_bidding

We do NOT tolerate this type of activity at NamePros and wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

Eric Lyon
NamePros Team

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On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:34 PM, rguest <[email protected]> wrote:
Sir,
I have no idea what you are talking about. I have never, before today, used your site, and I have certainly not, as you state, bid on an item I have placed on your site. I am not aware of any previous contact from my computer, which I add, is one of a number at my company, a company that has been trading in the UK for almost 40 years and one that has an excellent reputation in its field.
Your comments insinuating and indeed stating that I have committed a criminal act are both insulting libelous.
I am unsure how legislation in America treats such written statements and I will need to pass your comments to our solicitors for comment.
I treat my reputation and that of my company very seriously and do not appreciate accusations of illegality.
I would also ask if you have made such accusations public, by the banning of my account being publicised for ' shilling'.
from my mobile
Roger Guest


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From: NamePros Webmaster [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 25 October 2012 20:40
To: rguest
Subject: Re: Banned for Shill bidding
I appreciate your sincere attempts of trying to deny using same IP's / Computers, however, the server logs say otherwise.

86.156.132.152 - account: rgh123 -
2012-10-25 04:10:23
86.156.132.152 - account: humug1s1k - 2012-10-24 09:20:17
We wish you the best in all your future endeavors.
Eric Lyon
NamePros Team

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Sir,
You are wrong and immature , whilst I understand your misinterpretation of the situation, nevertheless, whilst I and my son have indeed committed no fraud or intended fraud, you on the other hand have committed the civil offence of libel in accusing me and also my son on another email that you have sent to him of 'shill bidding'.
I have been advised that there is little chance of success of a conviction against you for libel in the US courts as it would be unnecessarily expensive to take action against you in America as no public damage would appear to have been done to my name or that of my company.
I have been in business for 45 years and have dealt with companies on an international scale , though I am now semi retired, I have a reputation for honesty and I abhor your accusations. Luckily for you there has been no public release of either my name nor that of any company associated with me and as such my solicitors do not believe that any substantial or sustainable damage to my reputation could have occurred, they also point out that it would be difficult to prove that you are the individual making the libellous accusations, if you did not admit it in court. Should it have been otherwise I do have the funds and intention of defending my reputation.
You did not take the time to explore the true facts before making your accusations, which is unwise. I would suggest that you take care in future to be a little more circumspect and revise the accusatory tone of your responses.
My son used your site to auction web addresses, I on the other hand have never previously used your site before yesterday and had not heard of your site.
I have been told that on a previous auction your website crashed and an auction my son was holding became null and void. The person who had bid the most at that time had also bought other addresses from him and my son asked if he was still interested, he admitted he was but later stated he did not want the address. My son put the address back up for auction and the same person then bid on the site.
He mentioned this to me when we were discussing a possible business and I asked him if I could have the address as it was of potential value to me. He stated that the address was being auctioned and ; whilst you have accused us of acting in an illegal and immoral manner, I take pride in being scrupulously honest. I said I would purchase the address and as opposed to simply asking him to withdraw the auction I said that I would bid as any other potential buyer. Of course now I have the address anyway for which I thank you.
I presume that if you take the time to check previous auctions my son has held on your site that you will find that these were not actioned from my company's IP address though it may well have been that he used one of the stations in my company to access your site to check on the auction.
I need neither your appreciation for any attempt to deny using the same IP address, as the same IP address may have possibly have been used for a contact with your web site, or indeed wishing me 'the best in my future endeavours' .which I find rather pathetic and childish.
Should you wish to travel to the UK at some time in the future let me know, perhaps we can continue this discussion before witnesses where I would be grateful if you can repeat your accusations..
Roger xxxxxxx

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As stated NAMEPROS has not responded to any of my messages to them, and I would suggest that the NON-PAYING bidder is still on their site!

So all in all I am selling the domain to my father, if Eric reads this then he can check the status of the domain on Monday afternoon, and also would like an apology from the Namepros team issuing to my father, and myself, though I appreciate that that is NOT going to happen!!

Hey ho.......


*The same IP issue Namepros refers to is due to me accessing the site from my mobile whilst at my parents warehouse/office......as in WIFI.....but it annoys me that they just banned me without asking or investigating........

 

[Biggie]

Anyway in answer to your questions:

did you and your father share or use the same "user account" at np? No, my father set up a separate account

did you and your father have different accounts at np? Yes, see above


did your father place a bid on your name in this auction? Yes, for $5

acccording to your answers above...

i'd say they were within their rights to ban both of you


why?



cuz you and your father could be conspiring to raise the bids, thus shill bidding


otherwise, why would your father bid on the name?

why wouldn't you just give it to him or sell it to him or rent it to him?


imo...

 

[humbug1s1k]

Thats fair enough however if that was the case then the domain would remain in my possession, ultimately there was a bit of my father wanting to make a point to the NON-Paying bidder and also using the domain for himself, but in any case I told him to bid like any other person, plus if I wanted to shill bid wouldnt it make sense for it not to be my father, or at least have a user name that looked like my name......

Plus that doesnt excuse the chap who didnt pay the first time and then acted in the way that he did.......by telling me he didnt want it then bidding......I dont do business with people like that, and certainly dont excuse behaviour like that, irrespective of the amount!!

Plus why would I put myself in a position of getting banned intentionally for $2!!!

Anyways.......always interested in hearing other points........

Still would like Eric/Namepros to contact me though, as their problem wasnt that my father had bid, they were saying we were one and the same, which just isnt true!

Plus he insinuated we were both liars......again, not true!

 

[humbug1s1k]

Oh and as far as just giving the domain to my father, I couldnt do that because the auction had already started......before he registered interest....

Plus we dont have a relationship where we just give each other things.......he is a business man and acts accordingly, irrespective of me being his son

 

[Johnn]

They have the rights to ban both of you.

If you want to sell the name to your father or he wanted to buy from you then both of you should do it off the forums.

It does not matter how you slice it - It's shill bidding.

 

[humbug1s1k]

and the chap who didnt pay, then feigned interest to get the name for a few $$'s less than I ased him for???

 

[Gerry]

Shill bidding is shill bidding. Do you know what shill bidding is?

 

[Gerry]

again, not true!

Dude, you're acting like being kicked off NP is the end of the world. It is not.

But shill bidding is shill bidding.

And it would not be tolerated here.

Is your dad also a registered member here?

 

[humbug1s1k]

No my father isnt on here....he only registered at Namepros to bid on the domain.....

Its not the case of it being the end of the world, I dont like being called a liar, and nor does my father......plus no one has commented on the chap who didnt pay first time round and then feigned interest to get the name for less.......this is why this all started.....but Namepros seems to feel that that kind of behaviour is acceptable, I dont!

Whether it was shill bidding or not, I am not a liar, my father is not a liar, and I do not tolerate NON-PAYING bidders, and people that lie and use sly tactics in business.....but he's still a member on Namepros......


Look ultimately I always found Namepros a great site, I enjoyed reading the posts, the comments etc, and in a small way participated with my very very limited knowledge when I could, and always acted responsibly when selling domains on Namepros, as they can see on my profile......but this whole episode has soured my opinion, and dont get me wrong, they dont give a rats ass about me, my father or banning us from the site, but I do, from an integrity point of view......it would have been nice for them to discuss the issue without just banning!

Hey ho...........

 

[Gerry]

Whether it was shill bidding or not, I am not a liar, my father is not a liar, and I do not tolerate NON-PAYING bidders, and people that lie and use sly tactics in business.....but he's still a member on Namepros......

You're worried about the other chap. Namepros is worried about everything you just stated in that quote. To NP and others, it was shill bidding which can be interpreted as lying vs. the TOS, you used sly tactics, you can not be trusted, the other chap is not responsible for payment since it appears he was bidding against himself while someone on the inside was running up the bids (you or your father), and that is why he is still a member of NP and you are not.

Honestly, it doesn't look too good for your side when you come on here and say Whether it was shill bidding or not and then want sympathy for being kicked on another forum. That (shill bidding) is the very definition of sly tactics in business...yet you want sympathy?

 

[Biggie]

he only registered at Namepros to bid on the domain.....

 

[humbug1s1k]

Im not looking for sympathy.....

And yet still no one has mentioned the NON-PAYING bidder.....lol!

Firstly I discussed the situation with my father, he stated that he thought that, from a principle point of view, the other persons actions were disgusting, then added well maybe he could do something with the domain himself so I told him to bid like everyone else, thats what he did, long and short......

and the chap who initially didnt pay for an auction he won????????????????????????????????????????????

Anyone? LOL.......


Look you dont know from Adam.....I'm Jason, by the way....

my comment "Whether it was shill bidding or not" might have sounded a little flippant, it wasnt meant that way......my father made the bid in a honest fashion, I suggested he did so honestly, I've never lied or hid that fact, it was done so innocently with a view my father would try and win the auction for himself.......

But again I come back to the chap who didnt pay, lied, cheated and then bid.........

 

[silentg]

You can't really go after the bidder who won the auction. The whole auction is void because of shill bidding. Here's why I see this as shill bidding: Your dad didn't win the auction. He stopped bidding and let the other person. That's what shill bidders do. They pump up the price.



Thanks for letting us know about your bidding tactics.

 

[slimpickins]

sorry to hear you had this issue. I am a mod there now but had a "similar" sitaution several years ago when my brother was visiting and I showed him NP and he signed up..... the new account was of course also flagged as a dupe and we were both (or at least he was) contacted about the issue. We quickly clarified the situation and then it was fine... but of course the stipulation was made to stay out of each others sales threads to avoid any "confusion" etc.

Although I can understand your frustration, and to a certain degree feeling of being offended, quite frankly the situation could have been avoided in a FEW ways.

First, since the window of opportunity was already missed to sell it directly to your dad since he apparently wasn't aware of/interested in the domain until you explained the situation after the non-paying bidder got in on the second auction, the most TRANSPARENT thing to have done was to have him just WATCH the auction and, after it was over, send a PM to the winner to the effect "I missed out on that auction unfortunately but find the domain of interest.... would you be interested in a quick flip?".... given its original auction price of $8, chances are the second auction would not have been much better and, if your father was truly interested in it, ponying up 2X plus the winning price would not have broke the bank and avoided his direct involvement with any of your transactions.

Second, if he just wanted to be involved in the auction to, if nothing else, ensure that the original nonpayer didn't win/screw up the auction again, he could have just bid to a price he was comfortable with AFTER being proactive and reaching out to a moderator for that section or admin explaining that he is related to you but independently interested in the domain and would like to bid IF he received the green light.

It would have been better if there been a window of time for someone to review the flagged accounts and reach out for clarification BEFORE they saw what is understandably suspicious activity (ie bidding on an auction associated with another account using the same ip) and reached the logical conclusion of a dupe account and shill bidding.

You know who you are, and who your father is, but you cannot realistically expect someone that has nothing more than numbers, online evidence and your ACTIONS to go on to turn the other way and "assume" that things are indeed legitimate. Again, can understand your frustration and feeling of being judged/misunderstood.... but you certainly did not make it easy to see the situation otherwise.

I would recommend reaching out to Eric, if you wish to be a part of NP after this situation that is, and work towards clarifying the circumstances and what is appropriate behavior going forward.

And, on a different note, reading over the replies between your dad and Eric, I am a little more confused regarding how the original auction "ended".... the emails made it sound like the auction was rendered null and void for some reason (rather than just extended) due to technical difficulties on the site, whereas your original post makes it sound like there was a clear winner that did NOT pay despite your repeated PM's looking to close the deal...... as a member and mod there I can only say that IF it was the latter, regardless of the price, it IS a "big deal" to at least bring to our attention on (even if you don't feel it warrants a negative TR etc) so that we can keep tabs on that member in case a pattern emerges.

take care and hope the situation is sorted out as good as possible. SP

 

[Gerry]

You can't really go after the bidder who won the auction. The whole auction is void because of shill bidding. Here's why I see this as shill bidding: Your dad didn't win the auction. He stopped bidding and let the other person. That's what shill bidders do. They pump up the price.

It appears this entire point is being missed.

 

[Gerry]

take care and hope the situation is sorted out as good as possible. SP

Yeah, I personally would love to see someone involved in shill bidding re-instated vs. permanent banning (of members who posted something elsewhere of NP and who joined another forum).

 

[Gerry]

hope the situation is sorted out as good as possible.

You mentioned how you are somewhat confuse regarding the auction...I am a little confused over this; if he was caught in a shill bidding scam, how does he prove it was not shill bidding?

The short answer is he...

 

[Johnn]

The whole thing is so simple and I don't understand why you are making noises as you are innocent.

You clearly violated the rules and we would do the same thing here.

You two were banned because of shill bidding - hence the auction was void.

Nothing else needed to be discussed. It's all Black and White so stop whining.