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- Jul 25, 2005
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I bought a domain with the developed site (1 month old) here at DNF in the sites for sale thread and after 1 month I made the site very popular with decent revenue. And for reasons unknown to me, the previous owner sent me a first email telling me to take some of the content down explaining some copyright infringment. I am offended being called a pirate, a thief and a few other choice words too, but won't be pushed around, especially over a 75$ site (which is what i paid) I bought the site without talking down the price based on its clean design, the "ok" domain name, and the navigation bar done in java (a line of code not difficult to find through search). My final post in the sales thread even comments on my satisfaction over the purchase, the fact i made some quick changes and had some more to do as time see's fit.
DNF locked the thread for me by request when i got the first letter and now it cant be edited to protect me from any more annoyances from this strange little man. This Post will lengthy, im posting the thread url first, then ill post the first email, and my reply, the second email and so on in order of date. I'm hoping someone with experience in this peculiar phenomenon can shed some light for me.
What I would like to know first off:
1) am I wrong ?
2) am I overeacting based on your findings ?
Any other information will give me a better perspective and help me decide where to go with this. For people wondering why i need some advise over this seemingly small issue is a simple answer. When I'm pushed around by people who dont have the balls to answer the phone or do such action face to face, then I do get a little emotional and have difficulty making decisions which can cost me. And as well, I never want to do anything I feel is uncalled for. So I ask that these simple questions be answered honestly and without bias. Even though he stopped bothering me yesterday, he disrupted my peace of mind and I am not so ready to let it go.
First instance) Sales Thread:
http://www.dnforum.com/showthread.php?t=153905&highlight=proxydown.com
All the proxy sites in the listing are the exact same other than the banner image.
Second instance) Email 1 month after purchase:
Hello! It has been brought to our attention that you are using an illegal clone of the script and imaging used by our company, PalSys Network, LLC, on the site mentioned above, and others. You have 24 hours to remove all instances of our code, images, and modified copyrighted materials from your site(s) to avoid legal action.
Thank you for your anticipated cooperation!
Chris Redman
PalSys Network
Third instance) My reply:
Hi Chris.
I bought ProxyDown.com from you, in it was this content. I'm using it on at least 100 sites possibly more if i recall right. I made some small changes so it wouldn't reflect on proxydown but pretty much the same. Gimme a call if you like. If there is a piece of the site that shows palsys let me know, I'll go look but I believe I made sure all the name references were changed.
613.880.5988
Kevin Farrell / Ottawa.Ontario
Fourth instance) His reply:
There is nothing pertaining to PalSysâ¦you simply stole our images and script, modified it slightly, and included in your site. That is illegal. In fact, you are showing our copyrighted company logo, our separators images, our background images, our script. Even the image names are the same. All of this material is well copyrighted by PalSys Network.
The site you purchased did not give you the right to steal our copyrighted scripts and images to use on your own site, slightly modified or not. Again, please remove ALL of this content from your sites. If you are running 100+ sites, it is only logical that you can afford to have a developer create a network header of your own.
Chris Redman
PalSys Network
Fifth instance) Reply from me:
Hi again Chris.
I just looked it over a second ago. I didnt read the code, i did look over the site from a surfers point of view though and didnt see anything pertaining to palsys.. can you point me to it ? and if its in code let me know..
Sixth instance) again, his reply:
Kevin,
I donât think Iâm being clear here. The only details you need are to remove our network bar from your sites. The purchase you made did not include the network bar, it is included on every site we own and produce. Weâve sold over 400 sites to date, and this is the first time someone thought they had rights to our network bar. Weâll make a point to make it a little more clear in the future to avoid confusion.
To be very clear: you have no rights to our network bar, any of the images included in it, itâs code, and especially our company logo. The purchase you made was for proxydown.com and itâs logo, nothing else. The network bar was included from an entirely different server, and you have NO rights to it at all.
As far as you saying you made the proxybar.info logo from scratch, that is clearly a lie; our logo is still in the image.
I donât want to sound too tough here, but you cannot remove the network bar when you âgot the time.â You have been given legal notification that there is copyright infringement taking place, there is obviously no disputing that, so you have 24 hours from the time of our original email to take ALL of our code and images from your sites.
If you do not take down the bar immediately, regardless of the 24 hour notice, that will be seen as a direct declination. The sites in your network are of very poor quality, and they reflect badly on our company. In fact, this entire theft was brought to our attention by a surfer who wanted to know why we were sponsoring your sites.
Please donât make this any more difficult then it needs to be. We can go as far as having Pirate Police (the copyright infringement company who protects our software, code, and imaging) contact the RCMP, but Iâd really prefer not to have to go that route.
Iâve included the PSD file for the ProxyDown logo as per your request. As a side note, it looks as if you are using our modified PHProxy script on multiple other sites as well. This is not illegal, but it is highly unethical. I would ask politely that you refrain from reproducing our work, but I have no legal ability to enforce this.
Thank you,
Chris Redman
PalSys Network
Seventh instance) my reply:
I can make some changes.
Gimme the info i need and will work on it tonight.
What I'll need is some detailed description of your copyrights to the images i bought from you. Example, your talking about images.. im only guessing but there are approximately 6-10 images involved (correct me if im wrong) gimme the image names and define the copyright so i can be sure when i "alter" or "makeover" I wont perhaps get even closer to another image you have made. Also you said I could have the psd files. I never got them and didnt ask. I opened photoshop and made the proxybar.info you see from scratch.. was in a hurry though but will make it a little more detailed when i got the time.
Kevin.
Eight instance) his reply:
Kevin,
This is the fourth email saying the exact same thing, so Iâm not going to go into anymore details. Iâm not concerned with your programmer and your new bar design, I just want PalSysâ bar taken off of your sites.
To be clear, the scripts and bar images were not included in the sale and they were not included with the files you were sent. The only thing related to the bar that was included with your site is the two lines of code calling the files from the private server that you proceeded to steal them from. This means that you literally took the time to individually save each file that compiles the PalSys Network bar. How that can be theft in any more clear of a tense is beyond me.
This is not my ânetwork as I call it.â We are an established internet services provider registered with the federal government of Canada, the provincial governments of Nova Scotia and British Columbia, and with the city of New Westminster. I am the owner of this company, and we employ 7 others. I am not Joe Blow who steals copyrighted property to add to my hobby, I am a businessman.
Whether or not you take the prospect of legal action seriously is irrelevant to me; we employ Pirate Police to counter against you, a pirate. We also keep on retainer David Weldon, a barrister with offices here in Vancouver. He will be contacted the appropriate department of the RCMP tomorrow to file the complaint. The legal threat is not over a $75 website, it is over the potential thousands that we stand to lose when thieves associate themselves with us for their own gain.
You represent just one more case in a long line of people who steal from others to help further themselves. This is the first time weâve had property with the company logo stolen and then reused, but people stoop to new low levels every single day.
As far as your own barâs creation, Iâll say it again: I donât care. Many companies mark their sites with network bars such as ours (InetInteractive for example), and weâve never had to contact the thousand or so other companies who do this to find out what we are allowed to do. The idea is quite simple: come up with your own logo, your own images, your own code, and, hereâs a thought: pay for it! Also, it should be noted that the âleaf within a cubeâ logo using a partial maple leaf before the words âPALSYS NETWORKâ is copyrighted, and unique.
You are misunderstanding the entire purpose of this email; the bar on your site does not NEED to be replaced, our copyrighted materials need to be removed. My concern isnât only that you stole from us, it is that our company is now associated with yours in the mind of average surfers. Considering the poor quality of the sites displaying the stolen images, that is both an embarrassment and a money loser.
Good neighbours donât steal, Kevin. We made web site sale number 5,000 today, and in having a few drinks with the employees here at PalSys, we came to a consensus that you are the first buyer to steal and modify the network bar that showed on all 5,000 of those sites. The other 4,999 are good neighbours.
Chris Redman
PalSys Network
Ninth instance) my final reply through email:
Chris.
I'm talking to my programmer now, hes just waking up,. and im just going to bed, so ill continue my conversation with him in the morning. I'll be coding a new bar, and of course my designer will do the image work.. not too difficult. I wish i had more time., but im slow with photoshop. or im just not so creative.. one of the two.
24hrs ? cant be done.. ill be asleep the next 8hrs.. on the road ten hrs after that, playing with my kids and having dinner.. then its 20hrs before i even open any software on my computer. I'll be sifting through emails and messages for at least an hour.. taking care of some hosting clients possibly, then i can begin looking into which sites are concerned,, at that point i have to dig up usernames and passwords to each account and begin my work. As well i have to hope my programmer has made the new bar for me. and of course my designer. Such a tall order cant be done in 24hrs.. not physically possible.
I'll do my best, and talk to you when im at my computer again tomorrow night.
You need to know that I'm being nice about this whole thing. You sold me the site and this was part of the site. I paid you without delay and made sure no reference was made to your "network" as you call it. I'm not sure where your coming from with this whole thing.. I'm already willing to completely change the code and images and im not even concerned about your legal threats.. I'm simply being a good neighbour so lets just work together here. I'm just saying you can relax with your legal threats over a 75$ website. I'll still make my own bar as that was my intention anyhow. I really dont want to look like someone else's site.
I spent alot of time tonight doing my research, i found several site using this bar without your information in it. I'll continue my research tomorrow night and fill you in with some of my findings.
I'd still like you to tell me what i should avoid in my bars creation. So if you could please let me know soon, i can make sure i keep it as original as possible. To give you an idea of my request to my guy it runs along the line of a metallic look, with a Canadian red.. such as the color codes in almost all Canadian sites. i like the leaf, but will reserve that for my Canadian sites. ill have another look for my .coms and other assortment of tld. Hopefully my guy can come up with some thing original with a leaf with and colors red and white. Hes done some nice work for me in the past.
Kevin.
DNF locked the thread for me by request when i got the first letter and now it cant be edited to protect me from any more annoyances from this strange little man. This Post will lengthy, im posting the thread url first, then ill post the first email, and my reply, the second email and so on in order of date. I'm hoping someone with experience in this peculiar phenomenon can shed some light for me.
What I would like to know first off:
1) am I wrong ?
2) am I overeacting based on your findings ?
Any other information will give me a better perspective and help me decide where to go with this. For people wondering why i need some advise over this seemingly small issue is a simple answer. When I'm pushed around by people who dont have the balls to answer the phone or do such action face to face, then I do get a little emotional and have difficulty making decisions which can cost me. And as well, I never want to do anything I feel is uncalled for. So I ask that these simple questions be answered honestly and without bias. Even though he stopped bothering me yesterday, he disrupted my peace of mind and I am not so ready to let it go.
First instance) Sales Thread:
http://www.dnforum.com/showthread.php?t=153905&highlight=proxydown.com
All the proxy sites in the listing are the exact same other than the banner image.
Second instance) Email 1 month after purchase:
Hello! It has been brought to our attention that you are using an illegal clone of the script and imaging used by our company, PalSys Network, LLC, on the site mentioned above, and others. You have 24 hours to remove all instances of our code, images, and modified copyrighted materials from your site(s) to avoid legal action.
Thank you for your anticipated cooperation!
Chris Redman
PalSys Network
Third instance) My reply:
Hi Chris.
I bought ProxyDown.com from you, in it was this content. I'm using it on at least 100 sites possibly more if i recall right. I made some small changes so it wouldn't reflect on proxydown but pretty much the same. Gimme a call if you like. If there is a piece of the site that shows palsys let me know, I'll go look but I believe I made sure all the name references were changed.
613.880.5988
Kevin Farrell / Ottawa.Ontario
Fourth instance) His reply:
There is nothing pertaining to PalSysâ¦you simply stole our images and script, modified it slightly, and included in your site. That is illegal. In fact, you are showing our copyrighted company logo, our separators images, our background images, our script. Even the image names are the same. All of this material is well copyrighted by PalSys Network.
The site you purchased did not give you the right to steal our copyrighted scripts and images to use on your own site, slightly modified or not. Again, please remove ALL of this content from your sites. If you are running 100+ sites, it is only logical that you can afford to have a developer create a network header of your own.
Chris Redman
PalSys Network
Fifth instance) Reply from me:
Hi again Chris.
I just looked it over a second ago. I didnt read the code, i did look over the site from a surfers point of view though and didnt see anything pertaining to palsys.. can you point me to it ? and if its in code let me know..
Sixth instance) again, his reply:
Kevin,
I donât think Iâm being clear here. The only details you need are to remove our network bar from your sites. The purchase you made did not include the network bar, it is included on every site we own and produce. Weâve sold over 400 sites to date, and this is the first time someone thought they had rights to our network bar. Weâll make a point to make it a little more clear in the future to avoid confusion.
To be very clear: you have no rights to our network bar, any of the images included in it, itâs code, and especially our company logo. The purchase you made was for proxydown.com and itâs logo, nothing else. The network bar was included from an entirely different server, and you have NO rights to it at all.
As far as you saying you made the proxybar.info logo from scratch, that is clearly a lie; our logo is still in the image.
I donât want to sound too tough here, but you cannot remove the network bar when you âgot the time.â You have been given legal notification that there is copyright infringement taking place, there is obviously no disputing that, so you have 24 hours from the time of our original email to take ALL of our code and images from your sites.
If you do not take down the bar immediately, regardless of the 24 hour notice, that will be seen as a direct declination. The sites in your network are of very poor quality, and they reflect badly on our company. In fact, this entire theft was brought to our attention by a surfer who wanted to know why we were sponsoring your sites.
Please donât make this any more difficult then it needs to be. We can go as far as having Pirate Police (the copyright infringement company who protects our software, code, and imaging) contact the RCMP, but Iâd really prefer not to have to go that route.
Iâve included the PSD file for the ProxyDown logo as per your request. As a side note, it looks as if you are using our modified PHProxy script on multiple other sites as well. This is not illegal, but it is highly unethical. I would ask politely that you refrain from reproducing our work, but I have no legal ability to enforce this.
Thank you,
Chris Redman
PalSys Network
Seventh instance) my reply:
I can make some changes.
Gimme the info i need and will work on it tonight.
What I'll need is some detailed description of your copyrights to the images i bought from you. Example, your talking about images.. im only guessing but there are approximately 6-10 images involved (correct me if im wrong) gimme the image names and define the copyright so i can be sure when i "alter" or "makeover" I wont perhaps get even closer to another image you have made. Also you said I could have the psd files. I never got them and didnt ask. I opened photoshop and made the proxybar.info you see from scratch.. was in a hurry though but will make it a little more detailed when i got the time.
Kevin.
Eight instance) his reply:
Kevin,
This is the fourth email saying the exact same thing, so Iâm not going to go into anymore details. Iâm not concerned with your programmer and your new bar design, I just want PalSysâ bar taken off of your sites.
To be clear, the scripts and bar images were not included in the sale and they were not included with the files you were sent. The only thing related to the bar that was included with your site is the two lines of code calling the files from the private server that you proceeded to steal them from. This means that you literally took the time to individually save each file that compiles the PalSys Network bar. How that can be theft in any more clear of a tense is beyond me.
This is not my ânetwork as I call it.â We are an established internet services provider registered with the federal government of Canada, the provincial governments of Nova Scotia and British Columbia, and with the city of New Westminster. I am the owner of this company, and we employ 7 others. I am not Joe Blow who steals copyrighted property to add to my hobby, I am a businessman.
Whether or not you take the prospect of legal action seriously is irrelevant to me; we employ Pirate Police to counter against you, a pirate. We also keep on retainer David Weldon, a barrister with offices here in Vancouver. He will be contacted the appropriate department of the RCMP tomorrow to file the complaint. The legal threat is not over a $75 website, it is over the potential thousands that we stand to lose when thieves associate themselves with us for their own gain.
You represent just one more case in a long line of people who steal from others to help further themselves. This is the first time weâve had property with the company logo stolen and then reused, but people stoop to new low levels every single day.
As far as your own barâs creation, Iâll say it again: I donât care. Many companies mark their sites with network bars such as ours (InetInteractive for example), and weâve never had to contact the thousand or so other companies who do this to find out what we are allowed to do. The idea is quite simple: come up with your own logo, your own images, your own code, and, hereâs a thought: pay for it! Also, it should be noted that the âleaf within a cubeâ logo using a partial maple leaf before the words âPALSYS NETWORKâ is copyrighted, and unique.
You are misunderstanding the entire purpose of this email; the bar on your site does not NEED to be replaced, our copyrighted materials need to be removed. My concern isnât only that you stole from us, it is that our company is now associated with yours in the mind of average surfers. Considering the poor quality of the sites displaying the stolen images, that is both an embarrassment and a money loser.
Good neighbours donât steal, Kevin. We made web site sale number 5,000 today, and in having a few drinks with the employees here at PalSys, we came to a consensus that you are the first buyer to steal and modify the network bar that showed on all 5,000 of those sites. The other 4,999 are good neighbours.
Chris Redman
PalSys Network
Ninth instance) my final reply through email:
Chris.
I'm talking to my programmer now, hes just waking up,. and im just going to bed, so ill continue my conversation with him in the morning. I'll be coding a new bar, and of course my designer will do the image work.. not too difficult. I wish i had more time., but im slow with photoshop. or im just not so creative.. one of the two.
24hrs ? cant be done.. ill be asleep the next 8hrs.. on the road ten hrs after that, playing with my kids and having dinner.. then its 20hrs before i even open any software on my computer. I'll be sifting through emails and messages for at least an hour.. taking care of some hosting clients possibly, then i can begin looking into which sites are concerned,, at that point i have to dig up usernames and passwords to each account and begin my work. As well i have to hope my programmer has made the new bar for me. and of course my designer. Such a tall order cant be done in 24hrs.. not physically possible.
I'll do my best, and talk to you when im at my computer again tomorrow night.
You need to know that I'm being nice about this whole thing. You sold me the site and this was part of the site. I paid you without delay and made sure no reference was made to your "network" as you call it. I'm not sure where your coming from with this whole thing.. I'm already willing to completely change the code and images and im not even concerned about your legal threats.. I'm simply being a good neighbour so lets just work together here. I'm just saying you can relax with your legal threats over a 75$ website. I'll still make my own bar as that was my intention anyhow. I really dont want to look like someone else's site.
I spent alot of time tonight doing my research, i found several site using this bar without your information in it. I'll continue my research tomorrow night and fill you in with some of my findings.
I'd still like you to tell me what i should avoid in my bars creation. So if you could please let me know soon, i can make sure i keep it as original as possible. To give you an idea of my request to my guy it runs along the line of a metallic look, with a Canadian red.. such as the color codes in almost all Canadian sites. i like the leaf, but will reserve that for my Canadian sites. ill have another look for my .coms and other assortment of tld. Hopefully my guy can come up with some thing original with a leaf with and colors red and white. Hes done some nice work for me in the past.
Kevin.
ive been close to the edge with a full message box for months.. time to clean er up.
