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[Prosperous]

Is it possible to renew names that just expired today? I don't use DS as much as others, so I'm not too familiar with the interface. Does DS not have a "grace" period like other registrars?

Domains I had at DomainSite that had expired, remained listed (and available for renewal) in my account for approx. 30 to 50 days (.INFO excluded, and I think .NAME as well), depending on the TLD. And renewals then worked fine, except for the .US names, which were a bit problematic.
However, some of the better names that I had let expire somehow got removed from my account a few days sooner than some 'lesser' names reg'd on the same date!?

 

[owen]

RULE #1: Please, with sugar on top, renew your domain before it expires. Failing to do so at any registrar is risky. The expiration date does mean something (it's not there just for looks), it means that is the date in which the registration for that domain expires and it may be deleted. Not renewing your domain name before the expiration date is bad practice.

That being said, at DomainSite, for all domain names, with the exception of INFO in the past, the delete command is sent to the registry 30 - 45 days after the domain expires. For registries that have a redemption period, there is a fee charge by them to redeam the domain. That cost and the cost of having to go through the more tedious redemption process is passed on to the consumer (the person that did not renew their domain name when they should have).

Currently, INFO names are not being deleted on the date of expiration. This was being done for the free INFO names that were given away last year. The reason for this was due to the expense incured by keeping them registered.

 

[StockDoctor]

Currently, INFO names are not being deleted on the date of expiration. This was being done for the free INFO names that were given away last year. The reason for this was due to the expense incured by keeping them registered.

Still amazing that the registrars feel they can just delete a name before it's actual expiration date. Free or not. The grace period of 45 days was put in to protect the registrants (not the registrars) in the case of errors etc. Sometimes renewal emails don't get thru or are just not sent by some registrars who now can possibly profit more from shorter grace periods, mock-redemptions, in-house auctions of their own customer's names, and inflated "redemption" fees. Getting to be a bunch of unregulated crooks and whores, who come up with their own policies and terms of service that lock their customers into non-beneficial relationships.

 

[owen]

Ugh. All registrars are bad and evil empires bent on screwing as many customers as they can because deep down they know that this is how to stay in business and make the most money. Most registrars I know keep a record of how many customers they screw and then compare and contrast at the ICANN meetings. They are a sinister bunch of folks, that is for sure.

I happen to know that the people running DomainSite, and many other registrars, are not crooks or whores. No more than anyone on this board, including myself, at any rate. I know it sounds good to say that and probably makes a lot of people feel better to think that, but it isn't the case. Most are honest people trying to do what is best for the customer and make money in a business in an industry where margins are razor thin and people are quick to jump to conclusions regarding the intentions of anyone that does anything that they might not agree with.

It is true that emails do sometimes not make it to their intended destination. For this very reason, domain registrants need to keep an extra special eye on their domains to make sure that the domains do get registered. It is no ones fault but the registrants, even if you do not receive a renewal notice, if a domain does not get renewed. I'm not sure why everyone is so quick to blame the registrars when they forget to renew their domain names. Is it the fault of the Dept. of Licensing when you forget to license your vehicle? Or maybe it's the fault of a newspaper when you forget to renew your subscription? All mainstream registrars, DomainSite included, send out several renewal notices to the registrant contact email addresses in an attempt to get the domain renewed. If a registrar does not do this, then I would say they are not doing what they should, but they are certainly not the one responsible should the domain not get renewed.

Don't know what to tell you about the INFO domains being deleted on the day before expiration at DomainSite. Maybe a bad business decision. But at the time it made more business sense not to have several hundred thousand dollars in auto-renewal fees deposited at a registry where it wasn't needed and 99% of the domains were not going to be renewed anyhow.

Of course, all of this can be avoided by simply renewing domain names in a timely manner.

 

[Anthony Ng]

@owen - I thought you were no longer with DomainSite?

Yes, I too agree that it's more the registrant's responsibility to renew. Have had my share of losing some decent domains - my fault.

 

[Dave Zan]

Let's put it this way: registrars can delete domains before or after they expire
at their discretion. But more often than not, they do the former with a darn good reason.

Here's a quote from an extreme case I once wrote about:

One of my friends from a “reputable” registrar just relayed me a recent but disturbing case. After hearing the full story, I’m prompted to talk about it.

One of the provisions in every domain registrar’s legal fine prints requires each and every domain name registration to always maintain accurate and updated contact information. Failure to do so will force the registrar to suspend the domain and eventually delete it if not “fixed” on time.

Each registrar has this portion as part of their agreements with the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (icann.org) upon accreditation to register and manage domain names. The main reason why this policy is adopted is to assist law enforcement and other parties to serve proper notices to the domain’s contacts.

When a registrar receives a complaint that a domain name’s contact records aren’t updated, they may exhaust every means possible to contact the registrant and the administrative and technical contact via their information listed. Depending on how much time and effort registrars are able to afford, they’ll attempt to notify them via email, phone, fax, and/or postal mail only.

There’s no standard time how long registrars will give for any of the domain’s contacts to respond. On the average, they might be given 5 days to a week.

If the registrar hasn’t secured any response whatsoever after some time, they’ll “suspend” the domain name and disable users from being able to use any website or email attached to the name. They do this in the hope of getting the attention of any of the domain’s contacts.

Hopefully one of them will notice and call the registrar about it. Once that happens, the registrar will advise the person what needs to be done in order to reactivate the domain.

At that point, the contact has no choice but to comply and do what the registrar tells him/her to do no matter how inconvenient it is. Every time and effort not following what the registrar says means the domain will continue to remain down.

If everything goes well, the domain name’s contact details will be completely updated. The registrar will eventually restore access to the domain name.

But if the registrar doesn’t get any response whatsoever after giving the registrant and other contacts more time to do so, then they’ll be eventually forced to delete the domain name.

Now you might say “That’s not right!”. To a certain degree, it’s not unreasonable to believe such.

Unfortunately that’s one of the agreements between ICANN and the domain registrars. So if your domain name ever gets such a complaint and you don’t pay attention on time, your domain name will surely be deleted.

But…it gets worse.

After a domain name is deleted by the registrar, it’ll “sit” for 35 calendar days in an authoritative database called the Registry. The domain name’s last registered owner has one last chance of getting it back within the first 30 out of 35 days, though it’ll be at a higher cost.

(Side note: I’m working on my own graphs explaining the domain name life cycle and others. I’ll post it here soon.)

Registrars normally are able to redeem domain names on behalf of their last registered owners if it were deleted due to non-payment or were “accidentally” deleted for whatever reason.

But in this case, the registrar chose not to redeem it. They cited it violated the same policy more than once in the course of its registration.

This part is especially what bothered me.

It’s bad enough a domain name can get shut down simply because your domain name’s email or phone number isn’t updated. But it’s even worse if it got the same violation more than once and was judged to be deleted.

Of course, it’s still within the registrar’s discretion if they choose to redeem the domain or not no matter what reason it was deleted for in the first place. But if their legal prints say they choose not to due to contract violations, then that’s possibly the end of it.

Suing the registrar for that might “compel” them to change their mind. The only way to know is to find out.

I subsequently asked for other opinions from my other registrar contacts. It turns out none of them have gone thru what this registrar experienced because they haven’t gone that far yet.

Out of respect for my friends (and “safety” since they need their jobs) working for this particular registrar, however, I can’t divulge who it is.

In the meantime, always ensure your domain names’ contact information is updated. If you truly value your domain names, you’ll do everything and anything humanly possible to ensure they’re safe.

 

[StockDoctor]

Ugh. All registrars are bad and evil empires bent on screwing as many customers as they can because deep down they know that this is how to stay in business and make the most money. They are a sinister bunch of folks, that is for sure.

Not all but sadly a large number of them are.

I know it sounds good to say that and probably makes a lot of people feel better to think that, but it isn't the case.

It is the case and I'm sure realizing it (or) saying it doesn't make any domainer "feel better".

people are quick to jump to conclusions regarding the intentions of anyone that does anything that they might not agree with.

Years of experience with accounts at over 70 registrars means these "conclusions" were not 'jumped" at.

It is true that emails do sometimes not make it to their intended destination.

Sometimes NOT sent by the registrar at all.

It is no ones fault but the registrants, even if you do not receive a renewal notice, if a domain does not get renewed.

Disagree! Registrars make tons of errors, as a group are largely incompetant, and the largest of them lead by examples of internal policies that are NOT in the domainers best interest.Can you say "whois manipulation"?

I'm not sure why everyone is so quick to blame the registrars when they forget to renew their domain names.

Don't be so quick to label or assume this is just about some expired names. It's much more than that. It's about an unregulated industry where registrars can make their own rules and screw domainers without penalty. Domainers are taxed without representation (note that little .25 fee), and the tax is forecasted to increase. The governing body (ICANNt) is just as corrupt as a lot of the registrars and does nothing. Domainers have NO voice other than these forum comments or complaints.

All mainstream registrars, DomainSite included, send out several renewal notices to the registrant contact email addresses in an attempt to get the domain renewed.

Yeah right, sure they do, and if they didn't, then I guess the name might expire, and would somehow go to the registrar's possession where they could auction it off for much more than a small renewal fee. How is it again that a registrar can take a name from the registrant's control after it expires, (or even before) keep the registrants whois details, and auction it or use it for their own ads?

If a registrar does not do this, then I would say they are not doing what they should, but they are certainly not the one responsible should the domain not get renewed.

Duh! They are NOT doing what they should, and a lot of the responsability for names NOT getting renewed is on them. I can provide several examples, if we want to drag this thread out a little longer.

Don't know what to tell you about the INFO domains being deleted on the day before expiration at DomainSite. Maybe a bad business decision. But at the time it made more business sense not to have several hundred thousand dollars in auto-renewal fees deposited at a registry where it wasn't needed and 99% of the domains were not going to be renewed anyhow.

This isn't just about DomainSite, (they make quite a few errors, but aren't the worst by far) it's about other registrars that didn't just delete names 1 day in advance. It's not just about the early deletion either, but in a number of cases outright blatant manipulation of the system to take names from domainers and convert them to registrar profits.

Of course, all of this can be avoided by simply renewing domain names in a timely manner.

Not always that simple when registrars don't send renewal notices by error or intention, manipulate whois records, lose ownership records, delete names by error or intention, send renewal notices on names long transferred out, don't respond to support requests, apply different grace periods to names they would like to grab etc etc.

I'll end this post with a question. GoDaddy's chief Bob Parsons said that the registry needs to remember that the registrars are it's customers, NOT the registrants. Now why would he need to make that distinction? Shouldn't the registrar's and it's customer's (registrants/domainers) interests be the same?

 

[owen]

I think what might be happening here is that registrars are getting together (probably over vast amounts of beer at ICANN meetings) and singling out certain people to abuse. That way they can write them off as nut jobs or conspiracy theorists. That is my current hypothesis. Joking aside, in any industry, especially relatively young ones like ours, there are bound to be some unscrupulous entities out there. In this industry this includes registrars, registrants, and registries. I have dealt with my fair share of all of these and none can be said to be made up of all innocent people. Most of the people out there are honest and want to do the right thing in regards to running their business and serving the customer. It's a balancing act and many times the two do not, and cannot, coincided. Most of the time the best you can do is hope to make 90% of your customers happy. The rest can never be satisfied or will just not agree with what you are doing. DomainSite is an honest company ran by honest and well intentioned people, as are many other registrars. The small subset of registrars that actually intentionally screw the customer is low. If this was their common practice then they would not be able to stay in business as a registrar for very long. There are plenty of choices out there so that a customer can choose to do business with another registrar.

Sometimes when you only see one side of the picture things seem very black and white. There are certain ways that you would like things to be done so that your needs are best served. Unfortunately, for the whole system to work everyone needs to be kept satisfied, or mostly satisfied, and be allowed to make decisions and operate in the way they best determine, under the law, in order to stay in business. In this industry there are many gray areas that many people are unsure of that will be dealt with as time rolls on. ICANN will adopt new policies, people will get sued, laws will be passed, etc. If a registrar is truly manipulating whois data and changing it from that of a current and legitimate registrant, the registrar is probably doing something illegal and can be sued in a court of law. If anyone has had this happen to them, I would suggest taking this approach since that kind of behavior should not be tolerated.

As for what Bob Parsons said regarding the registries customers being the registrars and not being the registrants. That is a true statement. Although many of the things that a registrar and registry might want to do should be geared towards serving the end user of the product, there are many times when the registry needs to focus on the needs of a registrar. A registry would love nothing more than to do away with registrars and require all end users to go directly to them. I'm sure some people might think this would be a good thing. A lot of people also remember the Network Solutions monopoly in the days of old and are not too keen on that idea. Too many times a registry will try to funnel more money through them by wanting to provide a service that is already being provided by others. Many times, these efforts are cloaked by telling the world that what they are doing is for the good of the consumer. WLS was a prime example of this. There are many industries where the originator of a product needs to focus on the needs of their immediate customer, the distributer. While their goal should always be to provide a quality product, they should not be constantly meddling in and trying to take business away from their distributors. Especially in an industry that was created as a way of deposing of a monopoly in the first place.

Nothing is really about the consumer in any business. Yes, I said it. The consumer is a requirement by most companies to make money so it is generally accepted that they need to be satisfied, but the real motivation is the money and not the consumer. Most companies would gladly get rid of all of their consumers if they could keep generating the same amount of revenue. Customers are expensive, they have demands, they sue you, and there are some that can never be fully satisfied. As a customer of many products myself I am not exactly ecstatic over this love/hate relationship, but I also understand it. I also understand there are times when a company that I am doing business with may not be able to run their business in a way that would most satisfy me. If I don't like it I go elsewhere, if possible. If I'm mostly satisfied, I stay. If they are doing something illegal, I would probably sue them. This should not be misconstrued with me saying that customer service is not important. Customer service is very important to the vast majority of businesses, registrars included. I'm just saying good customer service is not the motivating and that the motivating factor is the money generated by delivering good service.

This post is getting a bit long, I apologize. I think what all of this boils down to perspective. One persons perspective on a given situation will probably differ from another. I don't see rampant and intentional abuse by registrars in an effort to steal domain names away from customers (although I am sure there are cases where it happens). It appears that some people do, and maybe rightly so by their own experience.

OK, I'm done. This is my last post to this thread. Renew early, renew often, and for the love of Pete keep your whois info up to date.

 

[StockDoctor]

Thanks for spending the time on the post Owen. I for one enjoyed reading your comments.