Are These People So Ignorant of Trademark Laws or Just Full Of It?

[PRED]

op2:

 

[VirtualT]

http://www.dnforum.com/f283/1dylan-...com-1keith-com-thread-263651.html#post1314179

you do realise that Opera has a TM against it?

Are you So Ignorant of Trademark Laws or Just Full Of It?

Get my point?

 

[cursal]

 

[Peachesbackwards]

First off I'm intending to do an ecommerce site on 1Opera.Com. There are Hundreds of domain names with the word Opera. I Just got my first ecommerce site up that's doing OK. . It's fascinating that you are now paying attention to what I was trying to sell that when even if it was Sex.com you'd blacklist me. I'm totally aware of it.

I'm pretty sure that if a website was totally about opera and had nothing to
do with Internet Browsers/Computers, the use of the word opera is not an infringement. If you're promoting something that specifically uses the trademarks/celebrities purpose, that's another story. Oh, I just checked the cash parking page for which I've taken in nothing on 1 opera. Some things were on there relating to computers which I've now had removed, thanks
for pointing it out to me, seriously. You can buy the 1Opera domain name from me for $15,000. That's a joke. You're probably not smiling.:worried::worried::worried::worried:

The other thing is, if I bought something for $10 and I was told to shut it down or else, big deal. On the other hand, paying based on what I read here, alot more money is another story. That's my point. That also includes taking in alot of money.

Your still not grasping what I'm saying and I'll probably lose the few people left on this forum that don't have anything against me for stating the obvious, but I'm not addressing anything about the morality of trying to sell trademark/celebrity based blatant domain names but the perspective buyers who based on the posts here, are willing to spend alot of money despite the fact that they are asking for costly legal trouble. That's the part sorry I can't come to terms with basically because I don't take anything said by a bunch of strangers at face value. :yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

 

[VirtualT]

I'm not addressing anything about the morality of trying to sell trademark/celebrity based blatant domain names but the perspective buyers who based on the posts here, are willing to spend alot of money despite the fact that they are asking for costly legal trouble.

Of course they are, because as it's been pointed out theres lots of money to be made from TM names with relatively minor risk.

If your not addressing anything about the morality of it then what don't you understand?

 

[Peachesbackwards]

What I clearly said was if someone on this forum is selling a domain that is StarAthleteName.COM for example, they will be told to drop the name and if the site has taken in any money to relinquish the revenue. Once that is not done, there will be legal hardball done by the celebrities team. Fighting any of that is both costly and time consuming on the domain owners side. Sorry, I don't see how the risks of spending thousands of dollars based on what I see posted is worth the rewards from the buyer. I'm not talking about typo stuff. If you know you can embezzle millions of dollars from a company you work for but will eventually be detected and in all likelihood do jail time and give up all your assets, most people wouldn't think that's an acceptable risk. Hey personally, I don't give a damn what any of you do. I just have trouble accepting it on face value.

 

[steveto]

hmm...

I used to own a celeb name that was a dot com..but not to make money..I'm a weird cookie...I just registered it because I was a fan...no lawyer contacted me, no one threatened to sue me...at the same time, I never asked for any money..The celeb actually contacted me herself in a personal email and I gave it to her.

 

[DNQuest.com]

Interesting post, and intereseting replies. First, addressing the TM names. people are always willing to push the envelop to make a buck. These are cybersquatters and they are the ones that make us honest domainers be viewed in a bad light. The truth is, the risk/reward factor is in favor of the cybersquatter. Very rarely will one be called upon under the ACPA. The bottom line is what a person can do and sleepp well at night. Yes, there are many squatters on this site. Personally, I do not dabble in the TM market. With that said, I do beleive fair usage domains should be protected. Fan sites, opinion site, etc, but because of the squatters, TM holders have been able to overreach to obtain domains that were used in fair use. You can thank them all.

Peaches does have a great point, if DNF wants to be a leader in the domaining industry, I feel they should eliminate all sales and appraisals of obvious TM domains. If someone wants to dabble in the squatting game, that is their choice. But promoting them here should not be allowed. I know this will not be a favorable view, but you can't condem somtething and support it at the same time. In case anyone is wondering, I think SEDO and all the other parking, aftermarket selling sites should be held accountable for hositng the TMed names. And then there is domain tasting... There is much wrong with our business, but as long as money is being made under less than honorable circumstances, it will not change.

 

[Biggie]

What I clearly said was if someone on this forum is selling a domain that is StarAthleteName.COM for example, they will be told to drop the name and if the site has taken in any money to relinquish the revenue. Once that is not done, there will be legal hardball done by the celebrities team. Fighting any of that is both costly and time consuming on the domain owners side. Sorry, I don't see how the risks of spending thousands of dollars based on what I see posted is worth the rewards from the buyer. I'm not talking about typo stuff. If you know you can embezzle millions of dollars from a company you work for but will eventually be detected and in all likelihood do jail time and give up all your assets, most people wouldn't think that's an acceptable risk. Hey personally, I don't give a damn what any of you do. I just have trouble accepting it on face value.

this biz is basically about risk

all financial investments are about risk

the higher the risk, usually equals a higher return

there are domainers who once had tons of tm and typo names

later they sold them to buy generic

now..some are distancing themselves
and some are keeping quiet


if you don't want to buy any tm names then don't
and try to succeed without them, as I'm sure many have.

however, a lot of your premises are based on theory not fact

sure, there are those who do get C&D letters, some get them all the time.

they know the process...they know what to do

it's the risk level that they choose

registrars and dropcatchers auction these names every day

yet you don't hear about them getting C&D's for selling them or claims to the revenue they receive while it's parked, before being sold.

if you're moralistically attached...then strike there first, as that is the root.


imo...

 

[Peachesbackwards]

My post initially was just about addressing why people would pay large sums of money for domain names that would be inviting potentially costly and time consuming legal problems for blatant trademark type violations. My stance is, I just am plain skeptical of all the sales figures bantered about as they are based on someones posted statement, only, which is not a sound business practice where I come from. The answers given, really did not change my opinion of this practice, but that's all it is, an opinion. If I had my way, there would be no private messages permitted in terms of sales offers and there would be an open record on everything with a definate ending time. But you people are happy with the present system so that's the way it is. Doesn't mean I have to personally believe things either.

I wasn't trying to address whether people should be permitted to sell trademarked names or not and I'm not trying to put anyone out of business here who does that. Believe it or not, is not the kind of thing I would do.

My own opinion is I'm amazed at the rationalizations for someone buying this stuff being "it's worth the risk". A drug dealer says the same thing. I'm not talking about morality but the risk of getting caught. If you can do the "time" then be my guest and do the "crime". I'm sure several of you will take that statement literally which its not meant to be. I can't do the "time" so I'm not doing the "crime".

 

[jasdon11]

Peaches, what you suggest above (no PM in sales etc) is totally unworkable. Most purchases on here come through PMs.

I sell you a name - you want everyone else to know what you paid? Course not.

There are guys on this forum for years with virtually no post count, that just come to buy names. If you ever post a good name for sale, you'll know what I mean.

 

[jberryhill]

Peaches does have a great point, if DNF wants to be a leader in the domaining industry, I feel they should eliminate all sales and appraisals of obvious TM domains.

This is a perennial issue, and I like the "obvious" qualifier. Every definition of "obvious" is going to have a boundary somewhere. When you put yourself in the position of policing what other people do, you become responsible for what gets done.

 

[acronym007]

This is a perennial issue, and I like the "obvious" qualifier. Every definition of "obvious" is going to have a boundary somewhere. When you put yourself in the position of policing what other people do, you become responsible for what gets done.

Bingo!

 

[katherine]

Peaches does have a great point, if DNF wants to be a leader in the domaining industry, I feel they should eliminate all sales and appraisals of obvious TM domains. If someone wants to dabble in the squatting game, that is their choice. But promoting them here should not be allowed. I know this will not be a favorable view, but you can't condem somtething and support it at the same time. In case anyone is wondering, I think SEDO and all the other parking, aftermarket selling sites should be held accountable for hositng the TMed names. And then there is domain tasting... There is much wrong with our business, but as long as money is being made under less than honorable circumstances, it will not change.

Very well put. Now there is a difference between selling a TM domain and hosting the sale on a forum (DNF) or brokerage platform (sedo). However it is not far fetched to imagine that one day even DNF could sued for facilitating the sale of TM names
In America you can get sued for anything, anytime.

It is amazing that on professional forums like DNF or NP some people still advocate cybersquatting ("not a crime").
No wonder our business is viewed as rotten by outsiders.
Actually it's a business like any other, which requires ethics. But not everyone is gifted with good ethics and a dose of common sense.

I have said it before, we are complacent.
Any industry that fails to self-regulate will ultimately be faced with regulations thrust upon it.

 

[acronym007]

The point is this; you cannot regulate opinions. Just because a trademark term is used like apple, does not mean that every use of the word apple constitutes infringement. It is an opinion until a court decides otherwise. Applepie, applesauce, appleofmyeyepod, whatever it maybe is not automatically a violation.

 

[Namefox]

Another attack by Devil Dog on the OP that doesn't address the question. Moderator Devil Dog should be suspended from the Forum. Out of curiosity Devil Dog what is it like going through life not being able to give a straight answer to anything? I can just see your conversation with a woman, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, on a date:
Woman: Tell Me ABout yourself? You: How Bout those 49ers. Woman: What is your opinion on poverty? You: Lost is a great TV show.

If you're married, I imagine the conversation is still the same. I shun people like you in real life. Richard.

While I like to stay away from controversy, I really want to say that you have been rude and snide in your past couple of posts. Perhaps you should be the one given infractions for temporarily banned. Here is another example of you IMO going off about TM's. http://www.dnforum.com/f4/onlineworldseriespoker-com-thread-269257.html Anyways, as most of us hear, I try and moderate myself and mind my own business but I felt the need to speak up. Here is DNforum's rule on TM's

25. Sales of obvious TM domains will not be allowed. Questionable/objectionable domains are one thing, but an obvious TM infringement is not allowed for sale here. Common sense applies here. If you post it and it's a known TM or TM typo, it will be removed.

 

[DNQuest.com]

This is a perennial issue, and I like the "obvious" qualifier. Every definition of "obvious" is going to have a boundary somewhere. When you put yourself in the position of policing what other people do, you become responsible for what gets done.

I do understand the ramifications of what I posted. In a perfect world, it would be easy, but this isn't. Then again, there are very obvious squatters trying to make money becuase of TMed names. This is a privately owned site and the owner may do as they wish. If part of the TOS is striking any TMs which is deeemed a TM violation by the owner, so be it. SEDO does it (though I wish they do a better job). But this is a site for domainers and should be treated as such.

 

[Dale Hubbard]

Don references a good point. Maybe the registrars are similarly culpable for selling 'blatant TMs' to you in the first place. Where does the buck stop? If I buy a stolen car, then the person that sold it to me is just as guilty under common law for selling it to me as I am for receiving it. Ignorance is no excuse; but again, whose ignorance?

 

[Biggie]

Don references a good point. Maybe the registrars are similarly culpable for selling 'blatant TMs' to you in the first place. Where does the buck stop? If a buy a stolen car, then the person that sold it to me is just as guilty under common law for selling it to me as I am for receiving it. Ignorance is no excuse; but again, whose ignorance?

I think most totally missed that point Dale

many are saying it's a crime and against the law, when they don't really know.

if, it was against the law, they couldn't be sold, couldn't be listed or auctioned

it's up to each tm holder to monitor his own intellectual property

that's why you have these "domain recovery" services popping up

they go around peeping in peoples portfolio's then go back to the tm holder and say..."this guy is getting bank off your typo, I'll get it back for $800"

"it would cost you $1500, just to file wipo, so you'll save money dealing with me."

now, these "domain recovery" services are making money off "tm" names...whether directly or indirectly


they are profiting on the sale of tm names.
as is the registrar
and the dropcatchers

then when the ordinary domainer gets it...here come the letters

why

because they are the small guy, the loner, the individual

it's much easier to go after the little guys, than big companies.

case in point:

i bought a name in enom club drop for $15
it was a 1 word typo of popular site
i pointed the name to an affiliate and it made about $1k in 2 months
later, the affiliate dropped the name because of the tm claim
so i parked it
made some more bucks

then came the C&D letter from ..a "domain recovery" service
a lot of blah blah conversation took place, before i gave up the name

later when i typed that same name, it was now being redirected back to the same affilaite program. but the whois shows the "recovery" service's id

now...you're probably scratching your head?

yeah, the guy who managed the aff program, i think was in cahoots with "DR"
why?
because when i owned the name, he had called me on the phone to know how i was sending such GREAT traffic to the site.


here's something that will blow you...

using someone else's intellectual property, patents, tm's, and ideas is the American way.

we take your concept and throw it against the wall

pick up the pieces and rebuild it

then call it ours or mine


then later when you find out it's your technology...you sue
(while you are suing...lawyers and judges also are getting paid)

meanwhile that company has made millions and they pay you off and keep on trucking
(at the end of the year... the IRS and US Treasury get paid and I have yet to see the IRS give back money that was taxed from a tm name)

that business...that's capitalism... that's America!

not condoning.....just imo

 

[Devil Dog]

I think most totally missed that point Dale

many are saying it's a crime and against the law,

Great Post.

Mind you, not condoning it either, but....