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Chipping away at free speech?

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typist

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Kind of unrelated; if you don't show up to defend yourself in a WIPO, do you have to pay anything? Conversely, I would assume any defense of a WIPO dispute requires payment as well?

If you write a response yourself, you don't have to spend anything but your own time, and there is nothing to pay if you don't.

Besides the advice of a good lawyer, there's one more thing worth paying for in UDRP disputes imho:
a three member panel (because these seem to be somewhat more likely to produce predictable outcomes, based on the facts submitted).

If Complainant has elected to have the dispute decided by a single-member Panel and Respondent elects a three-member Panel, Respondent shall be required to pay one-half of the applicable fee for a three-member Panel as set forth in the Provider's Supplemental Rules.

http://www.icann.org/dndr/udrp/uniform-rules.htm
 
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DNQuest.com

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No. You keep getting this wrong: I don't fail to realize that the domain is not speech. My point is that I believe domains per se, under certain circumstance, deserve a better protection, as speech.

Domains ARE protected as long as the site is being used in good faith. As you admitted, the domain is not speech. So how can you argue it should be protected when you yourself said it wasn't speech.



You make an assumption that "air france stinks" is not an opinion about the TM holder. I disagree.

No where is it indicated or submitted that this was on the site. The respondant didn't even bother to defend himself. You can only decide cases based on what was submitted.



I can't see any proof to support this claim.
(in reference to commercial venture)

Links are PPC, PPCs generate revenue, generating revenue is a commercial venture. Additionally, it offered services of competitors and indirectly. you were able to get offered services of the TM holder.



Exactly my point: The "morons", as you call them, however might not know about this. You seem to believe their (potential) speech is not worthy of protection.[/QUOTE]

Again, what speech? Give me a quote from the site, not the domain name, that shows his opinions or discussions about the TM holder. Or show me anything on the site where personal content was added. If you cannot, then you need to stop, really. Ignorance have never been an acceptable excuse in court or UDRPs. In the TOS, you agree to certain terms, jsut becuase you don't read them does not excuse you from them. You violate them, action can be taken against you.

I have no idea why you are taking this stance, you say the domain alone is not speech, yet go on saying how free speech is being dimished. You have offered ZERO proof of any free speech on the site.

As far as personally coming after me, maybe you reseach before you go that road. Then agin, you might want to read post 11 again. At this point, this is becoming a joke.
 

typist

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I have no idea why you are taking this stance, you say the domain alone is not speech, yet go on saying how free speech is being dimished.

I will spell this our for you one more time:

I am fully aware that domain names, under the UDRP process, are not usually protected as speech.

I do however believe that domain names, under some circumstances, may merit better protection, as speech.

If this still doesn't help, and you've re-read the entirety of my statements, you should either 1) find this isn't so hard to understand or 2) give up to understand, and move on.
 

Dave Zan

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I do however believe that domain names, under some circumstances, may merit better protection, as speech.

That depends on the circumstances.
 

typist

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Of course, I agree.

I guess such distinctions would be hard to handle given the limited resources of udrp arbitrators. A possible workaround could be to simply refer complex issues to regular courts.
 

DNQuest.com

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The problem is, domain names are not speech, they are identifiers for IP addresses. Maybe people forgot that web addresses are a bunch of numbers and there was a great idea to use a naming system instead. So, There are TOS when registering the domain which you agree to when you register the domain. When you register the domain, you agree that it will not infringe on a TMed domain. By registering, you are agreeing to the TOS and the resulting actions and penalties which are clearly spelled out. Additionally, laws have been passed addressing this very issue.

If you view it "chipping away at free speech", it is not. It is indeed a trademark issue. And you can thank all the slimely cybersquatters out there who had made it difficult on us domaineers and had given us a bad rap. But the bottom line is clear, if you use the domain in bad faith, you will lose it. AS far as teh case you keep referring to, it had nothing to do with free speech.
 

Brett Lewis

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At the risk of shameless self-promotion, we just won a UDRP where a politician came after a local political activist who operated a critical Web site. The case was ultimately decided on trademark issues -- she made no showing that a politician could accrue trademark rights in her own name -- but free speech was the core issue raised by the filing.
 

typist

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At the risk of shameless self-promotion

I think your self-promotion is very welcome. congratulations :)
 

typist

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The problem is, domain names are not speech, they are identifiers for IP addresses. Maybe people forgot that web addresses are a bunch of numbers and there was a great idea to use a naming system instead. So, There are TOS when registering the domain which you agree to when you register the domain. When you register the domain, you agree that it will not infringe on a TMed domain. By registering, you are agreeing to the TOS and the resulting actions and penalties which are clearly spelled out. Additionally, laws have been passed addressing this very issue.

If you view it "chipping away at free speech", it is not. It is indeed a trademark issue. And you can thank all the slimely cybersquatters out there who had made it difficult on us domaineers and had given us a bad rap. But the bottom line is clear, if you use the domain in bad faith, you will lose it. AS far as teh case you keep referring to, it had nothing to do with free speech.

Your misguided claims have already been proven wrong by a court decision, based on solid reasoning (as opposed to your obtuse dislike of "slimely cybersquatters").

You may also wish to read up on this recent decision by a well-informed three member panel, further strengthening the protection of domains as speech under UDRP rules:

B. The <dellorussosucks.com> domain name.

Even though Respondent has never used it for any purpose other than a placeholder, this disputed domain name raises a question independent of the content of Respondent’s active site: Is posting this name as an Internet website itself Respondent’s “speech” entitled to First Amendment protection? At least one American court has held that it is. See The Taubman Co. v. Webfeats, supra, at 778. If that be the case, does the First Amendment confer a “right” on Respondent under paragraph 4(a)(ii) of the Policy?

These questions require an analysis different from that made above under paragraph 4(a)(i) of the Policy. The latter is a mechanical (though reasoned) comparison of the appearance, spelling, sound, and other objective characteristics of the disputed domain name against those of the mark,9 without regard to the content of the site.10 The First Amendment issue, in contrast, touches on application of national law to the facts of the proceeding. That the source of the national law in the present proceedings is the Bill of Rights demands special attention.

The phrase making up this domain name is undoubtedly expressive; in fact its message is clear and unmistakable to any English speaker and very likely to others familiar with certain words and phrases whose meanings and expressive qualities transcend a single language, such as “OK.” The rationale most often given for the “majority rule” for paragraph 4(a)(i) analysis, that non-English speakers may not readily distinguish the derogatory nature of the word “sucks,”11 even if a valid argument in other contexts (which this Panel doubts), carries little force where, as in this proceeding, the mark-owning service provider has a practice located in a single city in an English-speaking country.

The rationale for applying the initial interest confusion doctrine in Policy proceedings, that “harm results from the confusion caused by the initial attraction to the site by means of borrowing the complainant’s mark,”12 is similarly weakened when a word of uniformly derogatory meaning dilutes the likelihood of initial confusion. See The Taubman Co. v. Webfeats, supra, at 778, Justice for Children v. R neetso / Robert W. O’Steen, supra (decision based in part upon identity of mark and domain name).

A different majority of the Panel concludes that, in a proceeding involving parties resident in the United States of America, the free speech guaranty of the First Amendment to the Constitution confers a right or legitimate interest on the use of a domain name that itself is an expression of opinion, at least in the absence of other evidence that the registration of this domain name was merely a pretext for cybersquatting, see, e.g., Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. v. Richard MacLeod d/b/a For Sale, WIPO Case No. D2000-0662.

This right cannot be set aside under the Telstra line of decisions, as posting a domain name is little different from publishing commentary on a billboard. Though a one-time act the message is delivered each time the message is read. Free speech rights are not limited in time. And the Telstra doctrine presupposes no right in the domain name at the time it is registered.



7. Decision

By majority vote (see Rules, paragraph 15c)), the Panel orders that:

...

(b) as to the disputed domain name <dellorussosucks.com>, the Complaint is denied

http://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2006/d2006-1627.html

http://www.phillipsnizer.com/library/cases/lib_case313.cfm
 

jberryhill

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Kind of unrelated; if you don't show up to defend yourself in a WIPO, do you have to pay anything? Conversely, I would assume any defense of a WIPO dispute requires payment as well?

No and no.
 

Sarcle

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2 - The site was links to travel services and appearently you were able to get to the TM holder indirectly by following the links

I have a question about this one in particular. Say I have a beef with a company. I set up a website "thiscompanysucks.com" Am I not allowed to give alternatives to the company that I'm against. Or is that automatically "bad faith"?
 

Mr. Deleted

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I have a question about this one in particular. Say I have a beef with a company. I set up a website "thiscompanysucks.com" Am I not allowed to give alternatives to the company that I'm against. Or is that automatically "bad faith"?

depents on on if it is for profit, a lot of gripe sites may link to affilite program links, which gives them away as a for-profit site, and that can be used against them. But say www.registerflies.com, they seem non-profit, but they do have sponsored links to competitors, but I don't think registerfly has much chance to take that name away given their trackrecord as a company that truly does SUCK!
 

Sarcle

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depents on on if it is for profit, a lot of gripe sites may link to affilite program links, which gives them away as a for-profit site, and that can be used against them. But say www.registerflies.com, they seem non-profit, but they do have sponsored links to competitors, but I don't think registerfly has much chance to take that name away given their trackrecord as a company that truly does SUCK!

Well this is my question. They do have a legitimate beef with registerfly but are also making money from the affiliates. Could it be seen as bad faith?

Say I do the same with another company and have documented proof of their wrong-doings. Let's say just as an example (MicrosoftSucks.com) They have been found guilty of antitrust violations. Now they are going after open-source software. Say I post all of this information, have a forum for people to bring up their beef also, and have an affiliate link to buy a Mac, so as not to support Microsoft's illegal and suspicious activities. Am I still not allowed to make money from the site?
 

Mr. Deleted

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well tough call, i have seen that swing both ways, but it SHOULD, in my opinion, be OK, yet sometimes a panelist will decide for the complainant even in such cases... I guess it just depents on who the panelist is and their own agenda.

I would put the links as microsoftsucks.com/macdotcom to redirect to my affilite link if that was me.
 

Sarcle

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well tough call, i have seen that swing both ways, but it SHOULD, in my opinion, be OK, yet sometimes a panelist will decide for the complainant even in such cases... I guess it just depents on who the panelist is and their own agenda.

I would put the links as microsoftsucks.com/macdotcom to redirect to my affilite link if that was me.

I am asking because I see on paypalsucks.com They are posting affiliate links also; and promoting another online payment processor.

I do have a beef with a certain company, and would like to provide alternatives and it's a big company so there is much risk.
 

Gerry

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The opposite was the case with (I think this was correct) RyanAirSucks.**.

This case went to court and the owner of the domain won in a ruling stating the owner and user of the domain as well as the members of the blog had the right to express their opinion regarding Ryan Air's service. The court found that the only way one could express their opinion regarding this particular airline was to mention this airline.

It was quite a stunning decision. But the court ruled in against Ryan Air's claim.

-- she made no showing that a politician could accrue trademark rights in her own name --
Interesting. I am seeing some court decisions coming out of Europe regarding athletes (most notably soccer/football players) winning decision after decision regarding domain names. The courts are finding that it is their birthright and does not necessarily have to be trademarked. In many cases we are talking about major athletes with mega endorsements and someone else is cashing in on their domains.

There is a trend to spot talented players while still youngsters (mid teens) and register their names in hopes of success for the player equating to success of the domain holder. Sometimes it pays off. But the courts are finding also that the domain owner is depriving the player of the usage of his own name for marketing purposes. I thinks sometimes such decisions are based on money factors (again, the use of name with endorsements) or simply cybersquatting.

Hillary Clinton won her name in a dispute in the not too distant past.
 

DNQuest.com

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typist, I don't he time to fully read up, but I will point this out your little jab...

"You may also wish to read up on this recent decision by a well-informed three member panel, further strengthening the protection of domains as speech under UDRP rules:"

The decision wat not unamimous. One of the "well informed", as you put it, did not agree. It is a precendence, not law. And there are many opinions that can go back and forth on the same subject dependant on the personal agenda of the panelist.

As far as Politions compared to celebs (athletes, eprformers). Celebs make money because of their name and thier name is their TM. Politions are different. They are public figures and put themselves into the limelight of politics. Their name is not money, so to speak. Now with Hillary Clinton... Yes, she is a politition, but she is also an author and paid speaker. So she does use her name in commerce and if afforded protection.
 
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