End of year complaints about buying names at DNF

[David G]

This will be my last post for this year on DNF. Call it too much complaining if you will but this is what I feel like saying at the end of the year 2006.

Let me say it's quite unlikely I will be buying any more names on dnf next year, or posting as much. As you may know, during my nearly 5 yrs here (which time I greatly enjoyed and benefited from overall) I have been a buyer most all the time and only a rare seller.

For most of that time it was relatively easy to buy good names here at fair prices and also realize traffic on many. However, things have changed greatly culminating in 2006, so that is not true anymore:

1. Ever wonder how it seems so often the seller say's he can't provide stats because it was just parked the other day or parked only today so too early for any stats, or no stats are available at all, or assume no traffic, etc? The obvious issue is why not park it for a few days so the seller can find out if it gets traffic (so he can ask for more money if it does)? The reason he does not do so is he already knows it gets no traffic so that is why he puts it up for sale so quickly in many cases.

On many of these domains or sites the sellers do in fact have at least some limited stats but the stats are so dismal the sellers pretend they do not have any stats at all. (even with 1 or 2 days stats I can still easily judge traffic).

2. A few sellers when pressed on traffic data in PM's have said it gets traffic when it really gets none, or very little, or much less than claimed. These less than honest sellers do not realize I am on to their game (unlike many others here who simply buy and sell beteen resellers all the time) because most names I buy as a developmental name for a planned new website and so the new domain is put up as a new developmental site (or forwarded to a site on my server) and resolving on the web within hrs of the buy, with 2 excellent stats programs running. And by the way, I am very experienced at analyzing stats, in fact I consider stats analysis a hobby and even fun to do.

On some recent names i have purchased the traffic info (if it was given) was mostly false involving several sellers here, even somewhat established members. They either plain lied or greatly exaggerated about the number of unique visits, or worse yet said they had some traffic but really no traffic at all, sometimes not even 1 unique after a long time on my server!

Some sellers appear to have even tried to trick me by visiting the domain themselves a number of times (soon after the sale) from both work and home IP's without knowing in most cases I can tell it was really them doing it from my long-time experience at stats analysis plus the good stats software I have running in real-time. I often know or can find out the sellers IP address range and geo location which I can fairly easily match-up to the stats.

A reason I did not give them negative feedback is because that would only invite a war. The reason I never did a PayPal chargeback is also to avoid trouble, plus the names had value to me anyway as I can likely get traffic with good seo work since the names were keyword names. However, preferred to not do that time consuming work which is why of course I expected the traffic with the purchase.

3. Good keywords names even with unknown stats such as the ones mentioned above are hard to find here most of this year since most of the names listed here lately have no value or semi-worthless anway.

4. It's very tough to find good names for sale here at any price, except for the significantly over-priced ones.

 

[jazzpetals]

I don't think the above applies to only this forum.

 

[dcristo]

Thanks for the heads up. Yeah you want to tread cautiosly when the seller isn't transparent with traffic stats.

 

[Biggie]

3. Good keywords names even with unknown stats such as the ones mentioned above are hard to find here most of this year since most of the names listed here lately have no value or semi-worthless anway.

4. It's very tough to find good names for sale here at any price, except for the significantly over-priced ones.

Hi

just speaking as a member...

You got some valid issues, but imo they are all part of doing business.

I couldn't quote and respond to all your points, but we share some of the same experiences.


3. keyword names are harder to find because there is more competion for and recognition of their value.

4. i think you would agree that in "2006", there has been a least "1" good name found here, that was reasonably priced.

so, then to me....it's worth going thru it another year!

 

[furca]

If you wish to conduct business on a forum you must accept that the issues above will happen.

However, i'm sure you've found some good deals on here, so some bad ones just equalize the ratio.

If you want to buy a name from me, i'll conduct business as professional as possible. At the end of the day life sucks, but you deal with it.

 

[JuniperPark]

I think that a big part of the problem with the traffic issue is just plain IGNORANCE.

I'm one of the few people here actually RUNNING a server and LOOKING at REAL traffic logs. Those of us that do know that about 90% of all traffic now is junk -- bots, spammers, scammers, screen scrapers, "going to be a search engine" bots, pings, TM checks, illegal content checks, photo watermark checks, etc.

Even "human looking" traffic sometimes with be doing 10,000 pageviews in 5 minutes on my server - obviously not a real human.

I've asked some of the "experts" on traffic here how they are separating these out from the real humans when quoting stats, complaining about PPC programs under reporting traffic, etc and NEVER -- not even ONCE got a response.

Then there are people claiming "type ins"... I ask the same question as above, and again never an answer. Then there is the discussion of OVT numbers with extension -- that seem to magicly balloon before a sale,,, right.

So, I think it's about 10% fraud and 90% ignorance you're dealing with on the traffic question... and one of the reasons I also don't get involved in 'traffic' sales.

I was thinking about making a similar post about getting less involved in the forums, but for a different reason. I had a bad experience with Luc (the DRT author), which is covered in another thread, and in another case someone seems to have complained about me to the mods because I ~returned~ his money while working out a technical problem at the registrar preventing me from pushing the name to him.

Oh well, let's see what 2007 brings!

 

[RTM.net]

Read what JP just posted above (as well as Biggedon) as I concur 100%... having been in this forum - and the overall domain business about 10-11 years directly - the ups come with the downs.

It's part of risk management, and not simply a specific issue relating to dnforum.

Remember - it's what you do with the acquisition (in this case, a domain and/or site) and not merely what the seller packaged it as being...

Caveat emptor.


Cheers, and all the best in '07.
Rob

 

[jdk]

I would have to agree with you but when I purchase my names, even if listed with traffic, I tend to look at the name as not having much. If I do purchase a name advertised as having xxx amount of traffic and notice it gets xx amount after my purchase, I know it was due to me not asking enough questions regarding the traffic.

Sure we can say somewhat it is the sellers fault, but also the buyers. If the seller doesn't want to post traffic or park it for a few days, s/he should be upfront. Most aren't and this is where the problem starts. If I was selling the name, and didn't want to park it, I would say I don't have time and bid as is. This is my fault for not wanting to park, and perhaps make more money, or as you mentioned, I know there is no traffic. So to say it is all the seller, it is also the buyer in this case. Like you said, with a little SEO the names will get traffic.

Just my $0.02 and just that. Best of luck for the rest of 2006 and better luck in 2007.

 

[Mr.Domains]

Trader and JuniperPark, it will be a great shame to loose some of our long and respected members.

Do you not think it's just a case of business in general becoming less "honest" and more cut-throat? I treat everything these days as "buyer beware".

 

[jasdon11]

If I were selling traffic names, I would be happy to point them wherever the seller wanted for a short period, so they can evaluate the quality of the traffic for themselves - after that, there can be no come back.

Any seller that flatly refuses that option has something to hide IMO. If you are selling based on traffic, prove it - it would make for a better sale all round, and repeat business.

When you're buying a car, if the seller wouldn't let you check under the bonnet (hood?), you'd walk, right?

I know that this is a simplistic solution, and still open to abuse, but I can't think of a better way - the more transparent the better.

Finally, I don't think you can complain if someone states 'assume no traffic' - they are not hiding anything.

 

[Deleted member 82870]

"Caveat emptor", I couldn't agree more. I'm new to the domain business but have been wandering around the forums and Sedo etc to get a feel for how the business works. Its really no different to any other type of business.

You wouldn't buy a car without checking the mileage, or a home without a survey. If you stick to the same common sense rules the risks are going to be reduced.

I hope to be able to pick up some names and also sell one or two as well. Time will tell!

 

[insomnia]

Is there even such things as "keyword" domains now? Technically I'm not sure search engines still put any value in a domain name's keywords...

 

[Duckinla]

Do you not think it's just a case of business in general becoming less "honest" and more cut-throat? I treat everything these days as "buyer beware".

I think it's more a case of TM domains for the most part no longer being offered here. Lets face it, that was probably 95% of the true traffic domains. If you just have the remaining 5%, thats probably where a lot of the fraud is going to occur.

So your percentage of domains with fraudulent traffic sold here could have gone from 3% to 33% overnight with the disappearance of TM traffic domains.

 

[RTM.net]

I think it's more a case of TM domains for the most part no longer being offered here. Lets face it, that was probably 95% of the true traffic domains. If you just have the remaining 5%, thats probably where a lot of the fraud is going to occur.

So your percentage of domains with fraudulent traffic sold here could have gone from 3% to 33% overnight with the disappearance of TM traffic domains.

I would have to disagree... although I'm not really familiar with the TM domain marketplace - my portfolio is primarily composed of generic keywords or place names.

Then again, I usually prefer to hold domains for long periods, and at least do some sort of minimal development to test their SEOability and traffic potential. This usually also results in both reseller and end-user interest. When I have too many items in my portfolio (as in right now) to actively manage, I usually offer a few on the market.

Being forthright and courteous goes a long way - regardless of if it is here on DNF, or any of the other DN forums or brokerage sites.

Or maybe it's me being too idealistic Just my $0.02 and YMMV.

Rob

 

[wildwil]

Funny thing happened to me the other day. As I was looking on to 2007 I decided I needed to go through my list of domains and sell the ones I had good intentions of developing but had just neglected. A year ago I saw a name offered to a buyer in the domains wanted section that I thought was very good and purchased the domain based on its overture and word tracker scores as well as the development potential and great price. I came to realize I would not get around to developing it so I listed it for sale here at DnForum in the FIXED PRICE SECTION. The name was not being advertised as a traffic name but simply based on the one word potential of the domain, the price I wanted and the possibility someone would come along and want to buy it and make something of it. If not I would just keep it and wait another year. I received a PM asking if the price was firm and if it received any traffic. I logged into my trafficz account as a courtesy where the domain had been parked for about a year and based on this I told the seller it got on average 20-50 unique visitors per month. A little who is research or even typing the url and the buyer could see where the name had been parked and what service the stats are from. Clearly any expert in the field of traffic or newbie to the forum would know how to do this and would agree it should not be considered a high traffic name based on those stats anyway and it would need a development effort on the part of the buyer, which was exactly what I thought when I purchased it. After letting the buyer know I would just keep it if I could not get what I paid for it I agreed to sell the name at what I purchased it for 12 months ago as I would not be willing to lose money on it and I still thought the name was fairly priced and worth more than what I was selling it for anyway. Without going through a long story I received payment and the whole push process became a complete and utter nightmare and I wished I had just kept the damn thing. Tonight I was cleaning my PM box and decided to leave all who purchased a name and actually paid for it, a good rating. Later that night I received a PM stating it was funny he received a POS rating coming from someone who was such a liar for I sold him a name based on false traffic. I thought to myself WTF! I never listed this or touted it was a traffic name, I simply passed along the traffic stats becouse they asked as they were reported to me by trafficz. I let my feelings be known as I was offended at such a statement and offered the buyer the option to return the domain and I would refund the money. Based on this single nightmare and probably what became the most ridiculous sale of 2006 for me here I did not decide to never sell here again but rather have come to expect the ridiculous. Buyers should take a little responsibility as for what they purchase. Far too many times people claim to be an expert yet when they purchase something that falls short of expectations it is always someone else’s fault. People will always want to purchase names at next to nothing and dream they will make them rich with little or no effort. Too many times I have tried to sell names only to find they don’t have the money anymore, a sale didn’t go through or sometimes they are so out of touch as to how even a push actually works. This is a forum were complete strangers come to trade, sell and buy domains. I have yet to meet anyone here I have considered an expert and I always use caution when buying or selling but sometimes it just is what it is.

Listing a name on DnForum based on keyword -- Understandable
Buyer purchases name and demands traffic – WTF!
DnForum – Priceless

 

[The Pain]

Yes ... and then there are the outright liars, cheaters and scammers that inhabit these boards. They parade as players but are nothing better than thieves.

But the sentiment here is, it's okay, you should expect to be ripped off, hell, it's a good lesson. That is friggin sad. In some cases they try and give these scammers awards.

A small percent of people are wrecking this board. There are only so many new victims to be had for these people. Funny thing, they never come to the various domain shows, because they would have to meet the people they have scammed.

The Pain

 

[Domagon]

Much of the "low" fruit is gone, then add to that there many more new people here seeking to get rich in the business and it's no wonder so much of what's being listed is priced way up into the stratisphere.

It appears from a longtime member's perspective that Adam is no longer putting his heart and soul into DNForum like he once was - to be clear, that is the opinion of some based on how little has changed, and other various events like how the hacker situation (DNF was hacked awhile back) has been handled - trust is a big part of this business ... many longtime regulars, while they still visit here, are spending more time in other venues while others have simply have cut back doing business on message forums all together.

With the negatives out of the way, on the positive side, DNForum is among the largest venues (along with NamePros) for domain name discussion, still many fine people here, and new users, despite the faults of some, are essential to growing the domain name business; keeping it fresh.

Brandable, simple domains regardess of their traffic is where the real money is in the domain business; this has been true all along, but such domains are often a more difficult sell, since they often have little to no inheriant traffic.

For domainers, traffic domains are highly sought, but end-users, while they too like traffic, are often seeking something more important ... a quality domain they can utilize for their business, and to advertise / promote in numerous venues, including television, radio, print, etc.

As in any market, there will be dips along the way ... some may be experiencing that now ... but make no mistake, the domain name business, long term, is going only one way ... UP!

Me personally, I've recently set up a physical office (bought the land as an investment due to it has great location and highway exposure; building is a "teardown" candidate, but is perfect for my needs), have some new domain websites aimed at end-users in development - won't go into specifics here, but end-users are ultimately what's going to grow this business way beyond what it is today, but reaching them takes more work and effort...

2007 is shaping up to be a fantastic year - key is think beyond the domainer mindset when marketing domains, and think end-user, and of course "location, location, location".

Ron

 

[Rockefeller]

How about the deadbeat buyers that never answer their PMs...or make an offer and don't log on for a month..hmm, I wonder why I gave you negative TR. There are just as many deadbeat buyers as there are sellers.

 

[JMJ]

How about the deadbeat buyers that never answer their PMs...or make an offer and don't log on for a month..hmm, I wonder why I gave you negative TR. There are just as many deadbeat buyers as there are sellers.

You mean like your "good friend" does?

http://www.dnforum.com/showthread.php?t=188772&highlight=shad0w35

http://www.dnforum.com/showpost.php?p=1000304&postcount=3

http://www.dnforum.com/showpost.php?p=1005357&postcount=4

And here

http://www.sedo.com/forum/?task=showthread&thread=3798&tmp=&tracked=&partnerid=&language=us

Along with screwing me here
http://www.dnforum.com/showthread.php?t=196140

Aswell as others which aren't public knowledge just yet.

He seems real interested in this great name.
http://www.dnforum.com/showthread.php?t=199559

A $570+ profit for a day old regfee name seems like a deal to me. That is unless a sale wouldn't actually make anyone any money between the two of you.

This one aswell.
http://www.dnforum.com/showthread.php?t=199175

Should have just left the scheme to just one name the insurance one gave it away. I was actually going to let it go until I saw that. Sorry he suckered you into his dirty business dealings aswell. But you can't say I didn't warn ya.

 

[David G]

I think that a big part of the problem with the traffic issue is just plain IGNORANCE.

I'm one of the few people here actually RUNNING a server and LOOKING at REAL traffic logs. Those of us that do know that about 90% of all traffic now is junk -- bots, spammers, scammers, screen scrapers, "going to be a search engine" bots, pings, TM checks, illegal content checks, photo watermark checks, etc. Even "human looking" traffic sometimes with be doing 10,000 pageviews in 5 minutes on my server - obviously not a real human.

I've asked some of the "experts" on traffic here how they are separating these out from the real humans when quoting stats, complaining about PPC programs under reporting traffic, etc and NEVER -- not even ONCE got a response.

Then there are people claiming "type ins"... I ask the same question as above, and again never an answer. Then there is the discussion of OVT numbers with extension -- that seem to magicly balloon before a sale,,, right.

So, I think it's about 10% fraud and 90% ignorance you're dealing with on the traffic question... and one of the reasons I also don't get involved in 'traffic' sales......

Thanks Juniper for saying that because I now realize that is absolutely correct. Even though I spend many hrs a week studying my real server logs I sometimes get confused too as most of us do. I am sure it is 90% ignorance or confusion rather than deliberate bad stats reports.

An obvious example of this is a name I recently purchased (which I later questioned the seller about saying the traffic stats givern were incorrect) where the seller said it had considerably more traffic than my stats program shows (even though it was not sold as a traffic name).

It later turned out he was talking about uniques reported by TrafficZ however the majority of the uniques did not count as impressions according to the trafficz stats and my own server logs because as Juniper said there is a lot of bot and other non-legit traffic activity going on.

The ppc firms including trafficz and adsense are smart enough to not count any bots, spammers, scammers, screen scrapers, "going to be a search engine" bots, pings, TM checks, illegal content checks, photo watermark checks, etc. That is why our stats can show significantly more uniques than impressions and reason so many of us feel like there is great under-reporting of traffic by both ppc firms and sellers. \

Thanks to this thread and the feedback I now feel confident most sellers here are extremely good and honest, but many are confused by traffic stats, as sometimes are buyers, myself included too on occasion.

I apologize over this issue to all the members and especially wildwil as I now realize it's at least 90% due to confusion or ignorance and not dishonesty. However, with that said we still need to look closely at impressions vs uniques to see if the variance is correct or not since I still wonder why the differences can be so immense between the two at times.