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.eu fiasco - help needed with article please

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TECK

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teamwork, good points. EU will pick up for sure. Those who don't believe it... will cry later on. It's the same thing like you would say not long ago: "It's crazy to invest in domains, they are not worth it... I'll stick with real estate." Some of the popular domains sell for millions and the visionary guys grabed them for free originally... not bad huh?

To the topic, I repeat myself, nothing will be changed from the EU side.
Did you notice any registrars who managed to grab a lot of domains complaining? No. Why? because they prepared themselfs with months in advance.
GD tried the hammer millions of domains with ONE single registrar... LOL.
It's ridiculous. And now, Parson have the guts to complain because GD has to do a ton of refunds... I'm laughing my ass off. I wonder why he didn't queue his personal domains, like the rest of us...? He didn't manage to get one single domain (from the ones I saw) in Sunrise... and you expect GD to do better for little guys like us?
Common guys...
 
Dynadot - Expired Domain Auctions

italiandragon

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TECK said:
Let me ask you this question, dragon... if you had the money, would you do the same... or stick with the rules?
First, Pool didn't nothing wrong, technically. They sell domains, like you.
If someone complains about the domain name that is auctioned, it's very simple to solve the trouble. They will say that it was purchased by them from the original registrar and they can do whatever they want with it. Case closed.
The same way you would do with your priceless domain... you register it then you want to sell it for 1 million dollars, right?
You noticed that Pool does not actually register domains? Their armada or sub-registrars does.
So what's the difference between them and you, beside that they are a 20 million dollars business per year? None.
Everybody wants to make money with domains, I want to see a single member here who says it does it for free. :)

Cheers.

PS. You should really recover from the domain losses you have. It's over, many people lost good names due to bad decissions. No need to blame it on people with experience... they are good and we are really bad. I lost 130 domains with GD. That says it all.

yes you`re right but I did not say that creating 400 companies was against the rules, it was quite clever actually.
But regarding the auctions I`m not sure that what they did is ok.....unless we want to accept it in anyway.

Then the real thing is that I`m still recovering from ex.
She was canadian.:-/
 

wohl

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Strangely the 400 New York registrars did not actually get involved in the landrush.

However, there was a group of Americans who did a similar thing. They signed up 90 registrars in Bellevue and Vancouver, and have registered over 1000 3 letter .eu domains and 30,000 domains in total.

Around 22nd March they set up 8 shell companies:
aphroditeventures.com, lexiconmedialtd.com, fienna.com, worldonlineendeavours.com, lehighbasin.com, namebattery.com, vinitsia.com, hanoki.com.

Although these look like different companies, the same person / people is behind all of them.
 

lionheart

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These are my views about the legal and technical status of .eu registrations, particularly in relation to the Landrush. Please don't flame me (well, not too much!). I'm just referring you to the actual regulations. I don't personally care much about .eu... I got three domains I wanted anyway. I do care a bit about rules and regulations, because some consumers lose out if the rules are broken. But anyway, here's what I think the rules say - take it or leave it, and good luck!

My primary concern is that, under the terms of EUROPEAN COMMISSION REGULATION NO 733/2002 of 22 April 2002, Article 4e, and also EUROPEAN COMMISSION REGULATION NO 874/2004 of 28 April 2004, "Accreditation of registrars should be carried out by the Registry following a procedure that ensures fair and open competition between Registrars."

I put it to Eurid, and will also put it to the Communications Committee established by Article 22 (1) of Directive 2002/21/EC set up to oversee Eurid's performance and report to the Commission, that "fair" competition was not ensured, because Eurid's arrangements disadvantaged a large number of registrars by allowing "multiple outlets" to afford certain "parent" companies extra places in the first-come-first-served queues... in some cases, 100's of extra places, whereby they were able to acquire popular domain names which would otherwise have been available to individual registrars who did not attempt to "game" the system and only had one place in the queue.

Moreover, I believe Eurid made it possible for some people to gain "unfair" advantage by drafting accreditation procedures which enabled 100's of temporary registrars to be set up and reclaim their accreditation fee of 10000 Euros once they had served their purpose and terminated their contracts with Eurid. Although money would be deducted from this accreditation fee for registrations, any such money would of course be recouped (with profit) from registrants, so - in effect - it cost nothing to become a registrar for the sole purpose of obtaining extra places in the .eu queues. The 10000 Euros is not a payment to apply (like ICANN charges) but a "float" of cash to guarantee transactions, with any unspent money refundable in the event of a registrar deciding to shut down their operations (how long to do reckon these 'shell' registrars will stay open? Therefore I believe that Eurid were in breach of Article 4e. They failed to "ensure" that there was "fair" competition between registrars. The accreditation process was completely open to invasion by multiple outlets. Many single-entity registrars were disadvantaged.

I specifically warned Eurid that this could happen, back in July 2005.

To continue...

Under the terms of EUROPEAN COMMISSION REGULATION NO 874/2004:

4. "Registrars should only accept applications for the registration of domain names filed after their accreditation." - As many of these accredited registrars (for example those created for a Canadian company) were only accredited at the last moment, I find it highly unlikely that the applications from Registrants took place in accordance with European Commission regulations. Indeed, the parent company were taking applications months before its "additional" registrars were accredited.

Article 5: "A registrar who receives more than one registration request for the same name shall forward those requests to the Registry in the chronological order in which they were received." - it is well-publicised that parent companies have been selling .eu domains in auctions to the highest bidder from a group of applicants *after* the domain was registered. This would appear to be in breach of the EC regulation that the domain must go to the person who applied first.

Turning to EURID's own "Domain Name Registration Terms and Conditions" which are binding on registrants and registrars (and published on the EURID website), a valid "Application" is defined as "a complete, technically correct request for a domain name registration submitted to the Registry, which complies with all the requirements provided for in the Registration Guidelines." This must include, as stated in Section 4, that "all information provided to the Registry during the domain name registration process is true, complete and accurate."

According to EURID's "Registration Policy" Section 5 (ii): "through a Registrar, the Registrant must provide the Registry with... an address and country within the community" Furthermore, the application for a registration should include the Registrant's name. I am fairly clear, even from the simple logic that many domain names were not initially distributed but kept back for "auction", that a significant number of domains were *NOT* registered with the required details, and indeed could not be, since the Registrants were not to be those who legally should have been "first to apply" but unknown entities who would later bid the highest. Therefore I believe that these "shell registrar" multiple outlets not only resulted in "unfair" distribution of names to the loss of other registrants, but may also have been in breach of EURID's own rules requiring a "technically correct request for a domain name registration" complying "with all the requirements provided".

I believe EURID's accreditation and launch policies resulted in abuse of their own rules and of the European Commission regulations.

Turning to the EURID "Registrar Agreement", each accredited registrar was obliged to have an active website to be in compliance with Article 15:6 of this agreement. And according to Article 2.4 each accredited registrar was also required to make terms and conditions available - "if the registrar fails to provide such services in one or more of the indicated languages… such failure will constitute a material breach of this Agreement."

I am of the view that in scores if not hundreds of cases, there were no complying websites - and besides, any such websites with required services would have been irrelevant to the applicants who had applied for .eu names through the 'parent' company months before these 100's of registrars had ever been accredited.

In the context of these very late accreditations (and many missing websites), Article 4 of the Registrar Agreement with Eurid is particularly interesting: "The Registrar must guarantee that the Holder has accepted the registration agreement applicable when the application is made." Now if the "parent" company argues that it provided the terms of the registration agreement *before* its "shell" registrar was accredited, then it's in breach of the rules, because the application and agreement was not allowed to take place until *after* accreditation... and if it claims that somehow, mysteriously, amazingly, the customer did indeed apply in the last moments through these never-seen-before registrars, then where are the websites, and where is the interface, and why were these 100's of registrars serving a parent company which had the actual interface?

I believe, in reality, these 100's of "shell" registrars are in breach of Article 4 (and other rules) because not only did the Registrants fail to accept agreements through their websites... they didn't even apply through these registrars at all.

And indeed, not only that, but in various cases, the Registrant was not even known at the time of registration *because the auction for the name hadn't yet taken place*!

Article 4 also states: "During the Registration process, the Registrar will always submit (including but not limited to any submission in the WHOIS database) the data of the end user who made the initial request for the registration of the domain name(s) concerned and not its own data."

In many cases - and specifically in the case of names auctioned later to multiple applicants - this clearly did not happen.

When I warned EURID back in July 2005 about "parent" companies using multiple registrars to game the queues, they replied: "The accredited registrar must forward to EURid only those applications he received after accreditation, and he must do so on a first-come-first-served basis. Auctioning the domain name is definitely not allowed. Not complying with the regulation ...is a breach of contract."

I live in the real world. I accept that these things happen in the market place. At the same time, it seems to me that EURID have failed to uphold their own rules.

How can these auctions conform with the .eu regulations? EURID requires the specific registrant to be named in the application, and that is not possible if the auction has not happened prior to registration. Furthermore, where a registrar receives more than one applicant for the same name, .eu rules stipulate that the registrar must submit the first application it received.

Good luck to everyone anyway.

Yours sincerely,

Richard Henderson
 

kiran

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I just wonder if those 400 NY registrars were so successful April 7th.
The most successful were probably the guys from austria, they used the smartest techniques. Just like they did during sunrise i & II.
They used about 10 registrar accounts but physically placed their servers on different Internet hubs around Belgium.
Getting the best domains was really about using your brains, more than your bank account.
 

StockDoctor

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Great post above Mr. Henderson. Now how about putting the same effort into the sunrise trademark techniques used to game the system? Between the ghost registrars and the late trademarks with no product games, was there any doubt the masses wouldn't have a chance?
 

wohl

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kiran said:
I just wonder if those 400 NY registrars were so successful April 7th.

As I said, they did not get involved in the landrush. Check a bunch of landrush names and you will not find a single one registered to those NY registrars.
But I'm willing to bet that they get involved in landrush 2, and you can kiss goodbye to any hopes of getting a good name in that phase if they do.

However, the general theme of Parsons article was correct. The landrush was dominated by companies with phantom registrars.
The people who stand to make the greatest profit from the .eu landrush, by far, are the canadians pool.com who controlled a large but unknown number of registrars, and the americans westerdal / king who were behind the 90 bellevue and portland registrars.
The americans and canadians probably registered over 50,000 domains each, including 1 to 2 thousand 3 letter domains each.
 

denny007

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"fair" competition was not ensured

It was. Everyone could open as many registrars as i.e. Pool did.


I specifically warned Eurid that this could happen

Maybe You wrote them too long letter and nobody had time to read it ;)


I find it highly unlikely that the applications from Registrants took place in accordance with European Commission regulations

Why not ? Only i.e. Pool was taking orders. After the other registrars has been registered, it was POOL who ordered from them. Pool was customer of those registrars.


A registrar who receives more than one registration request for the same name shall forward those requests to the Registry in the chronological order

I am sure Pool was first in queue, so is auctioning THEIR OWN domains ;)

Guys, Pool put so much effort and money into this, I am sure they spent also a lot consulting the lawyers. Ordinary people was looking forward to get cheap generic .eu domains sand resell it with huge profits later. But companies like Pool or those fake trademarkists outsmart them. But there was NOTHING UNFAIR in it. Everyone could do the same. Calling for "unfair competition" is same like stupid people would complain about "unfair competition" from smart people.
 

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Fair or not???

While I not always agree with denny007, he surely is bringing up some good & true points here.
If, as a domainer who wanted some - hopefully - nice .eu domains, I get booted out by some clever companies/people, who found a way to bend the rules, then it is just tough. Hard but tough.

Yes, it is easy to call it unfair, but when the rules can be bent, that is what happens, and it happens anywhere.

Is it fair if I go to an auction and loose against a competitor with more money? Certainly not. Unlucky maybe, but not unfair.

Same like many people, who have lost their driving licence in Germany, travel to Poland, just to get a new one there within a couple of days.
Not fair, not (ethically) correct, but still legal and possible.

Theorethically we could have done the same:
Registering lots of weird and wonderful trademarks, to ensure we can claim those names wanted.
Too expensive? Well, that will show when the first bigger sales are done.
 

wohl

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So, the people who like to bend the rules came out best. That is one reason why I would define the .eu launch as unfair.

The .eu launch was biased in favour of people who are prepared to spend large sums of money to put their own wellbeing ahead of everyone elses. They were not smarter, just greedier.

Anyone who did not register domains because they believe that sunrise should only be for legitimate companies had no chance to get good domains.

Also, the big ‘winners’ from the landrush are mostly people who already had a lot of experience in the expiring domain market.
Perhaps they also were not smarter, but just have more experience in that field. Eurid could and should have taken steps to level the playing field so that experienced players did not have such a big advantage.
 

binaryman

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Just got told by Eurid that it is not allowed to sell .eu domains and that they will apparently not allow changes of ownership. What the ....@!!!!
This is the answer I got from them after I asked them in an e-mail how long it would be before I could transfer m,y .eu domain to a buyer. They even threatened to investigate me juridicly saying my activities were illegal.
HuH??? This was for my domain Pokerlife.eu
 

Chelsea

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binaryman said:
Just got told by Eurid that it is not allowed to sell .eu domains and that they will apparently not allow changes of ownership. What the ....@!!!!
This is the answer I got from them after I asked them in an e-mail how long it would be before I could transfer m,y .eu domain to a buyer. They even threatened to investigate me juridicly saying my activities were illegal.
HuH??? This was for my domain Pokerlife.eu


:help:

Please tell us that this was a joke...:greenupsetw:
 

MikeOConnor

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No joke. But not the end of the world either.

I just sat through their presentation at the Domain Roundtable a couple days ago and they mentioned that the process to transfer a domain has not been established yet.

I confirmed this with a couple of registrars. Today, if you want to sell and transfer a .EU domain to me, you can't because the API hasn't been released to the registrars. You can still sell the name, but you'll have to enter into some kind of side agreement that says you promise to transfer the name as soon as the process gets turned on.

The registrars I talked to are thinking that the API will get turned on fairly soon -- they're thinking within a week or two. Add appropriate grain of salt to suit your level of confidence in the capabilities of the .EU registry folks.

I think it's pretty nuts that a registry can roll out without having such fundamental processes in place. I also think it's pretty nuts that registrars accepted that and didn't raise a fuss.

But, to answer your question Chelsea, nope it's no joke.

As I visited with a registrar he mentioned that another key process (I can't remember which one, but I think it's the process to transfer a domain between registrars) is also missing in action. Again, my jaw dropped.

So you can sell 'em. But you can't transfer 'em. Pretty crazy huh?

Success has many parents, but failure is an orphan. I watched everybody on the panel point fingers at somebody else and saying that the failure wasn't their fault. PriceWaterhouseCoopers sent a video presentation instead of a real person -- and that presentation was clearly the first try at the defense on all the lawsuits that are likely to be filed against them.

It gonna get ugly peepul.

BTW -- I also heard that the "400 registrar" culprit isn't who we all think it is. I have to respect the confidence. But if the reporter guy is still watching this thread, here's a tip -- chase a little deeper into that one.
 

Azam.net

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MikeOConnor said:
PriceWaterhouseCoopers sent a video presentation instead of a real person -- and that presentation was clearly the first try at the defense on all the lawsuits that are likely to be filed against them.

It gonna get ugly peepul.

You're right: it's going to get very ugly. I have been doing a detailed analysis of various searches made this last week and those like "Traffic Web Holding" and "parknet bv" are absolutely astronomical. People who've had domain names stolen that they felt entitled to are seeing these company names in the whois and searching for them in large numbers. Traffic Web Holding and Parknet BV are two of the fraudsters involved in snapping up domain names. Surely somebody will take legal action against them.

I blame PwC as much as anyone. What were these bozos doing when these ridiculous and blatantly nonsensical sunrise applications came through?

As for the 400 mystery registrars, I'm curious. Anybody got more info. on them? Is it true that they may show their hand in Landrush II? (I don't understand why you have to "respect" their confidence, Mike, when they are clearly trying to manipulate the rules of fair play.)
 

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Yes, wonder if Landrush 2 will be mismanaged as well.

Does anybody have information on how Landrush 2 is going to be handled? Not much info. on the EURid site.
 
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