How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Embrace Rick Schwartz' vision for America's future

[lordbyroniv]

I do know that the video you linked to was written by a certain Jonathan Lebed. From his Wikipedia page:
Hmm that sounds familiar...

An ad hominem attack, why am I not surprised

 

[Nathan King]

An ad hominem attack, why am I not surprised

Attack? You said it was wrong for me to judge the video having not watched it, and I was explaining why I wasn't going to waste an hour of my time watching this prosecuted con-artist tell me where I should put my money.

 

[lordbyroniv]

Attack? You said it was wrong for me to judge the video having not watched it, and I was explaining why I wasn't going to waste an hour of my time watching this prosecuted con-artist tell me where I should put my money.

Your thought process is circular and your argument is an ad hominem

 

[Nathan King]

Your thought process is circular and your argument is an ad hominem

Givin this guy's past, it seems like a pretty sound thought process to me. And I wasn't trying to argue anything, just explaining why I judged the video without watching it.

 

[lordbyroniv]

Not trusting a prosecuted con-artist seems like a pretty sound thought process to me.

We will have to disagree. I weigh evidence. As a general rule, past behavior is usually not admissable as evidence.

 

[DomainsInc]

We will have to disagree. I weigh evidence. As a general rule, past behavior is usually not admissable as evidence.

charles manson has some interesting world views too.

 

[lordbyroniv]

charles manson has some interesting world views too.

Geez. Another ad hominem attack. Does anybody engage in critical reasoning any more?

 

[Gerry]

keep on dancing till the world ends Acro

There are billboards around town saying Judgement Day is May 21st and the End of the World is October 21st. This is by a group that are religious zealots and are dead serious about this.

Shall I embrace their vision as well?

 

[lordbyroniv]

There are billboards around town saying Judgement Day is May 21st and the End of the World is October 21st. This is by a group that are religious zealots and are dead serious about this.

Shall I embrace their vision as well?

I have been talking about the financial world, not the physical world. Although there will be great suffering in the physical world as a consequence of the financial turmoil ahead

 

[Nathan King]

We will have to disagree. I weigh evidence. As a general rule, past behavior is usually not admissable as evidence.

If a man's actions don't define him, then what does?

 

[lordbyroniv]

If a man's actions don't define him, then what does?

The content of his argument, not mere attacks on his character

 

[Nathan King]

The content of his argument, not mere character assassination

And where is your argument? You are simply disagreeing with what I'm saying without adding anything of substance. Which of the opinions that this man presented do you believe to be true? And why?

 

[lordbyroniv]

And where is your argument? You are simply disagreeing with what I'm saying without adding anything of substance. Which of the opinions that this man presented do you believe to be true? And why?

I do not see any argument that you have presented, regarding my original post about that the "student loan bubble" is a scam ready to pop, for me to rebut.

Although I see we both agree that the current financial system is unsustainable it appears you questioned the integrity of the film makers premise merely based on the character of the script written by Jonathan Lebed.

 

[Nathan King]

First off, student loans are no longer issued by private banks. Sallie Mae used to be the bank that would issue student loans, but that role was taken over by the Department of Education thanks to some high profile people drawing attention to the issue. There is no reason why a corporation should be able to garnish your wages (and without a court-order). Thankfully, that problem was fixed.

These loans are what is getting a lot of kids through college. Otherwise it wouldn't even be an option, and without that option, where is the opportunity? Without a degree, most would be stuck working part-time for minimum wage.

It is absurd to think that a college education won't serve you well. Middle class jobs in America require a college education. Often it doesn't matter what you study, what matters is whether or not you have a bachelors/masters degree.

Believe it or not, there are still cities in America with an unemployment rate of < 5%. And many more that are below what the national average was prior to the recession. The media has a way of sensationalizing things. If you are unemployed, MOVE! My brother just did this and found a job right away.

And even if the system were to collapse, we would rebuild. And then a college degree would become relevant again. Might lead to some lean years, but it is insane how much food we waste here in America. Not to mention that beef is a horribly inefficient food source.

 

[lordbyroniv]

First off, student loans are no longer issued by private banks. Sallie Mae used to be the bank that would issue student loans, but that role was taken over by the Department of Education thanks to some high profile people drawing attention to the issue. There is no reason why a corporation should be able to garnish your wages (and without a court-order). Thankfully, that problem was fixed.

These loans are what is getting a lot of kids through college. Otherwise it wouldn't even be an option, and without that option, where is the opportunity? Without a degree, most would be stuck working part-time for minimum wage.

It is absurd to think that a college education won't serve you well. Middle class jobs in America require a college education. Often it doesn't matter what you study, what matters is whether or not you have a bachelors/masters degree.

Believe it or not, there are still cities in America with an unemployment rate of < 5%. And many more that are below what the national average was prior to the recession. The media has a way of sensationalizing things. If you are unemployed, MOVE! My brother just did this and found a job right away.

And even if the system were to collapse, we would rebuild. And then a college degree would become relevant again. Might lead to some lean years, but it is insane how much food we waste here in America. Not to mention that beef is a horribly inefficient food source.

First, whether student loans are issued by private or public corporations makes little difference if government is going to bail out the too big to fails. The private market offering student loans would be ok if the lender took the loss in the event that the borrower defaulted. There should be no implied government back-stop.

Second, a market place for education is a fictitious market where demand is created "out of thin air" by giving money to students for loans also "created out of thin air".

Third, there is no "right" to education.

Fourth, there is a mis-allocation of resources by allowing students to take out $300,000 to get a PHD in mostly liberal arts programs.

Fifth, it is immoral to allow students to take out loans based on false career statistics.

Sixth, and this is the most important point - these people going to these schools are learning the wrong skills. There will be little or no opportunity for most of these students. That is why I titled the thread the way I did. I sincerely believe a young person would be better off spending $250,000 on a blue chip domain name and build a business with his "fishing pole" then spend that same money on a supposed education".

 

[Nathan King]

People majoring in art, music, and history probably won't get the job they want. But what about everybody majoring in computer science, engineering, medicine (including doctors and nurses)? I know a couple mom's that are going to nursing school on a federal loan, and they are going to be able to provide better lives for their kids because of it.

We have an aging population, which opens the doors for providing geriatric services, not to mention all of the jobs that open up as the baby boomers retire.

What about those learning a skill, such as welding? The average age of a welder today is in their late fifties, and it's estimated that nearly half of the welders in America are close to retirement. Federal education money can be used to learn a skill such as welding, plumbing, or any number of other necessary professions.

You are only getting one side of the story with the video linked to. And that's the side from spoiled kids that paid $100k for useless majors with no real planning for their future. And it sucks for them because they have no choice but to pay it back (even filing bankruptcy won't clear it). It'll be just another monthly bill for a good chunk of their lives.

Of course, inflation works in your favor if you owe a bunch of money...

 

[lordbyroniv]

People majoring in art, music, and history probably won't get the job they want. But what about everybody majoring in computer science, engineering, medicine (including doctors and nurses)? I know a couple mom's that are going to nursing school on a federal loan, and they are going to be able to provide better lives for their kids because of it.

We have an aging population, which opens the doors for providing geriatric services, not to mention all of the jobs that open up as the baby boomers retire.

What about those learning a skill, such as welding? The average age of a welder today is in their late fifties, and it's estimated that nearly half of the welders in America are close to retirement. Federal education money can be used to learn a skill such as welding, plumbing, or any number of other necessary professions.

You are only getting one side of the story with the video linked to. And that's the side from spoiled kids that paid $100k for useless majors with no real planning for their future. And it sucks for them because they have no choice but to pay it back (even filing bankruptcy won't clear it). It'll be just another monthly bill for a good chunk of their lives.

Of course, inflation works in your favor if you owe a bunch of money...

First, the majority of students in American Universities are studying liberal arts. I do not have a statistic to back this statement up but I know from experience it is true. These degrees are the most worthless.

Second, There are also ALOT of undergraduates that get graduate degrees after their undergrdaute degrees. These graduate degrees are oftentimes worthless too because the career statistics put out by the career center are simply false. Most graduate students will be unable to find a job after graduation.

Third, the debt. load taken out by these students range from approximately $100,000-$300,000. This debt. cannot be serviced without a good paying job and there are no good paying jobs in America any more.

Fourth, all the talk of doctors and lawyers making killer money is a myth. These services are being commodized and regulated to extinction.

 

[Bill F.]

Lordbyron arguing with a Greek? Surely there's historical precedent here.
Lord, it's not reasonable to require anyone to sit through a one hour video just to have the right to debate a point. I'm sure you could summarize in a short post, and save us all time.

That said, I probably agree with you. University degrees are ridiculously inflated. Most Bachelor's degree holders can barely think, let alone read and write with any competency. Yet, companies require at least a BA...because the person hiring has a BA. It's all a big circle jerk. The whole system of learning crafts has disappeared, so anybody who can walk and talk now thinks they need a college "education." With the prices going up and opportunities for grads dropping, the market will collapse. I think it's a great opportunity for the education business, though, as specialized education will deliver useful and marketable skills.

Of course there's a place for education, if students are really there to learn something (nursing, engineering, law, etc.) - but most of the undergrad stuff in particular is just fluff. There's nothing taught in most BA programs that prepares people for most jobs out there. They just learn to parrot the same mindless bs.....imho!

 

[Nathan King]

First, the majority of students in American Universities are studying liberal arts. I do not have a statistic to back this statement up but I know from experience it is true. These degrees are the most worthless.

This is because most schools consider themselves liberal arts today. Even computer science and engineering majors go through a liberal arts curriculum in the first two years at a lot of schools, including U of I which is one of the top engineering schools in the country.

Second, There are also ALOT of undergraduates that get graduate degrees after their undergrdaute degrees. These graduate degrees are oftentimes worthless too because the career statistics put out by the career center are simply false. Most graduate students will be unable to find a job after graduation.

This simply is not true (according to this government report). I'll come back to this report in a minute.

Third, the debt. load taken out by these students range from approximately $100,000-$300,000..

According to this different government report, the "average cumulative debt at graduation" is roughly $20,000 for undergraduates at public mid-cost colleges. You have to take into account grants and scholarships that most students receive as part of a financial aid package.

The federal government considers $45k as the limit that constitutes "excessive debt" for bachelors-seeking students. Only 3.5% of public university graduates surpassed this level. Your numbers do not match the government-released data, but they do match the tone of the mainstream media.

This debt. cannot be serviced without a good paying job and there are no good paying jobs in America any more.

Emphasis mine. You don't honestly believe this, do you? According to the latest government data (this is the report I mentioned above), the April 2011 unemployment rate for those holding a bachelors degree is 4.1%. This is down from 4.4% in April 2010. While the unemployment rate for those without a degree is 9.6%, and this includes the millions that are abusing the system and living off of welfare.

The mainstream media emphasizes obscure data out of context to make things seem worse than they are. For instance, there was an article a little while back that was talking about how 85% of college students end up moving back home after they graduate. They tried to make it sound like 85% of college graduates couldn't find work. The reality is, these people are the victim of "child worship" (Carlin). They are finding work, just moving back home before they set out on their own for good.

Fourth, all the talk of doctors and lawyers making killer money is a myth. These services are being commodized and regulated to extinction.

Doctors get paid right, but I'll let this one be since I've already made my case.

 

[lordbyroniv]

This is because most schools consider themselves liberal arts today. Even computer science and engineering majors go through a liberal arts curriculum in the first two years at a lot of schools, including U of I which is one of the top engineering schools in the country.


This simply is not true (according to this government report). I'll come back to this report in a minute.


According to this different government report, the "average cumulative debt at graduation" is roughly $20,000 for undergraduates at public mid-cost colleges. You have to take into account grants and scholarships that most students receive as part of a financial aid package.

The federal government considers $45k as the limit that constitutes "excessive debt" for bachelors-seeking students. Only 3.5% of public university graduates surpassed this level. Your numbers do not match the government-released data, but they do match the tone of the mainstream media.



Emphasis mine. You don't honestly believe this, do you? According to the latest government data (this is the report I mentioned above), the April 2011 unemployment rate for those holding a bachelors degree is 4.1%. This is down from 4.4% in April 2010. While the unemployment rate for those without a degree is 9.6%, and this includes the millions that are abusing the system and living off of welfare.

The mainstream media emphasizes obscure data out of context to make things seem worse than they are. For instance, there was an article a little while back that was talking about how 85% of college students end up moving back home after they graduate. They tried to make it sound like 85% of college graduates couldn't find work. The reality is, these people are the victim of "child worship" (Carlin). They are finding work, just moving back home before they set out on their own for good.


Doctors get paid right, but I'll let this one be since I've already made my case.

I think as the situation worsens in this country my arguments will be the winning arguments . . . stay tuned