Is there a resale market for .in's?

[dnfuser1234567]

Seems to be a huge risk against the $18,000-$30,000 needed to keep your domains funded in that term -- particularly given the regulatory (unfriendly to domainers) environment of India. I'd be interested in strategizing (getting others' thoughts) about India domaining opportunities that would work in the shorter term, say 12-48 months.

If you want to make peanuts like your recent $59 sale over on the other forum - then think short time. If you want BIGGER returns, then you need to think of .in as a long term investment and develop the ones you can.

---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

Didn't mean for that to come across negative, but you have to look at these as long term for a better return and know that the names you hold are good ones. Not only that, if you plan to develop them then take into consideration the size of the population and cater to that. The market should increase in awareness within the next 2 years, but they are far from their prime which I would estimate to start about 10 years out. Who knows, but for me - I am investing long term on .in names.

 

[junosama]

I personally like to save any money I have to invest in domains for .com, .net and the occasional .org only.

 

[Alan Glennon]

I think there are some bargains to be had in the .in namespace, and I present my recent sale as an example. For many, the name I sold (oaf dot in) would be the best in their collection --- for me, it was perhaps the worst. It's still a good name and the domainer that bought it should have an easy time making a profit. In any case, my .in domains are sustainable right now; the lesser names fund the betters ones, which are actively used. Few other domain owners are as fortunate.

With respect to the long term, I do not believe the common sentiment I see on forums that India's market will slowly build and realize the awesomeness of .in. The Indian market will change, but it will not be gradual. It will be sudden and disruptive. With hopes that the phase change is positive, the question is when, then whether .in will be along for the ride.

To answer Adam's original post, there currently is no resale market for .in. The medium-to-large size businesses in India feel entitled to any .in domain they want for nothing (reg fee). INDRP is there ready to hand even the most generic domain to any such Indian business that asks. INDRP reform will probably only happen when multiple reasonable size businesses start vying for the same domains. Someone should look into it, but my guess is that the number of sales on namebio for .in is probably about the same as the number of INDRP cases. It's an environment adverse not only to legitimate domain investors, but also to new, small businesses wishing to be build an identity with .in.

There are untapped opportunities in .in, but it's critical to know the environment.

If you want to make peanuts like your recent $59 sale over on the other forum - then think short time. If you want BIGGER returns, then you need to think of .in as a long term investment and develop the ones you can.

---------- Post added at 02:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

Didn't mean for that to come across negative, but you have to look at these as long term for a better return and know that the names you hold are good ones. Not only that, if you plan to develop them then take into consideration the size of the population and cater to that. The market should increase in awareness within the next 2 years, but they are far from their prime which I would estimate to start about 10 years out. Who knows, but for me - I am investing long term on .in names.

 

[ImageAuthors]

Thanks, Adam, for starting this thread. There's obviously a lot of interest in the future of .in. Maybe this thread can evolve into special subforum for .in -- both resale and development.

Once we get some in-country contacts and look into development, I think the market will evolve very rapidly. I think it's up to entrepreneurs in the domain industry to start the ball rolling. Isn't it often an uphill battle educating end users in the USA, Canada, and elsewhere about the value of domains? That will be true of India for awhile.

What's most illuminating to me is this: For all the doubts expressed about the rate of return from .in, nobody has taken me up on my offer to buy out their premium .in domains at a loss. Those who didn't buy .in may be sticking to their guns, but those who believed in .in apparently still do.

The reseller market in India may be nonexistent, and it may be small in North America. But it's at least as big as me. I'm selling and buying.

 

[mediawizard]

I doubt anybody would contradict me if I said that .in is still a speculative venture.

And you think some of the domains we see registered in .com are not? Why then do 50k of them drop EVERY SINGLE DAY?

my outlook is a 12 to 20 year turn window

Any domain that you can't make a profit on today isn't worth holding long term, specially since you don't know how the landscape will change in 20 years.

I'd be interested in strategizing (getting others' thoughts) about India domaining opportunities that would work in the shorter term, say 12-48 months.

Pretty much the same as in .com, buy high value domains at reseller prices and build a business on them, not just websites or sell to someone who wants to.

With respect to the long term, I do not believe the common sentiment I see on forums that India's market will slowly build and realize the awesomeness of .in. The Indian market will change, but it will not be gradual. It will be sudden and disruptive. With hopes that the phase change is positive, the question is when, then whether .in will be along for the ride.

I think it has already happened and .in is definitely along for the ride. 2 in every 5 new startups based in India use .in - see the developed .in thread at NP. Or any of the 'startup' tracking sites in India, will be pretty apparent pretty fast. A lot of US based startups are also using .in and garnering huge amounts of investment - see outside.in or exclusively.in as case studies.

To answer Adam's original post, there currently is no resale market for .in

Au contraire, there is a huge market, just not too developed at the reseller level. The annual advertising market in India is $5 Billion. Out of which approximately 50% is in the organised sector. Internet currently accounts for less than 3% of the organised sector, but with the explosion of internet users here this is bound to grow, just like it has elsewhere in the world.

The medium-to-large size businesses in India feel entitled to any .in domain they want for nothing (reg fee).

SMEs are mostly the guilty party here, not large companies - most of those just buy the domain they want for 1-5k and that's that, only goes further if the owner doesn't sell.

INDRP is there ready to hand even the most generic domain to any such Indian business that asks. INDRP reform will probably only happen when multiple reasonable size businesses start vying for the same domains.

INDRP is a process and subject to pretty much the same idiosyncrasies as UDRP. A lot more generics get handed over by WIPO that ever have been in most ccTLDs. Probably because a generic .com is worth a lot more. And this is open to judicial overview as well, don't like the INDRP decision.. go to court.

Someone should look into it, but my guess is that the number of sales on namebio for .in is probably about the same as the number of INDRP cases.

Around 250 cases in the last 6 years, out of 1.5 million domains registered, with most of them being pretty blatant tm issues. At the very beginning INDRP was abused to a certain extent by people right at top of the Indian domain food chain, but hardly at all now. Over 2k reported sales, am sure there are at least 3x not reported, I've heard of at least 3 five figure sales, from a dependable source, that haven't been reported anywhere, am sure there are a lot more.

It's an environment adverse not only to legitimate domain investors, but also to new, small businesses wishing to be build an identity with .in.

Registry is pretty clear on domain resale, it's not allowed, but afaik there is no issue with building out a website on .in and therein lies the opportunity.

If you track registrations you'll find huge tracts of registrations - 3-4k domains at a time mostly by US / Europe based companies in the last 6 months or so. The smart money is already investing in .in, are you?

 

[stock_post]

I bought few on this forum.. that I am dropping now..
Just writing them off.. as they drop.. some one is picking them as I see..

 

[ImageAuthors]

Anybody thinking of dropping their .in domains at a complete loss may contact me first. I may purchase some. Probably at low amounts, but it's better than letting them drop.

 

[Alan Glennon]

So there's an Indian reseller market, but the registry says resale is not allowed? Yikes. Prohibition on resale is via INDRP precedent only, right? Or is it in the terms of service somewhere? Concerning my issue with INDRP, the obvious trademark violations are not a problem -- it is the loss of generics like bare.in, honey.in, rig.in, and all.in (these domains were all lost via INDRP within the last two years). These were all taken by large Indian companies and the respondents were not previously contacted by the Complainant prior to the INDRP filling. To me, all.in here is the heartbreaker. Not only did the company win partially based on arguments that they were preparing to use the domains, but now that the company has them (for almost two years mind you), the domains are not even being used -- they don't even resolve. It's ridiculous and reflects poorly on the whole Indian cctld.

 

[dnfuser1234567]

@mediawizard - sure you can sell some now and in the next few years for a little profit, but you will be cutting yourself out of the prime time which is still a 10 (10 is the soft number I am aiming for) to 20 year window away. The time to get in is now, develop, and promote. I target names that are product related and will always have a demand and a place. I am not much of a flipper as the real money is in developing and I see long term value and need in building sites that are targeted towards a population of 1.2 billion with the kicker that .in will eventually be treated as gTLD.

I have also heard from some well connected members in the India web development scene that solid deals take place right now behind closed doors. I do not have any evidence to be able to prove what these people are saying, but they have a creditable history. I still feel the mark we should be aiming for is 10 years minimum, if things change globally and the economy picks up then 5 years may be doable. I wish luck to us all.

 

[DaddyHalbucks]

There probably is a resale market in India. Have you considered hiring an Indian broker?

 

[katherine]

INDRP is a process and subject to pretty much the same idiosyncrasies as UDRP. A lot more generics get handed over by WIPO that ever have been in most ccTLDs. Probably because a generic .com is worth a lot more. And this is open to judicial overview as well, don't like the INDRP decision.. go to court.

We have all seen strange WIPO decisions but not for names as generic as:
business
computer
internet
...

Nobody will convince me that INDRP is as fair as UDRP. Of course the rules is one thing, actual implementation is another.

 

[ecomindia]

very interesting thread... although was a bit lengthy but worth reading when samit post in any forum , post by post

Like India is a developing country, in same perspective, indian cctld is growing with each passin day. every good brand (specially fmcg and consumer goods and utilities, banking sector, IT sector, Real estate majorly and service providers.. ) are moving either to .in or .co.in focussing indian market and we should not now be discussing on it's survival much but rather be focussin on growth. Even comsumers are very much aware on what .in is and what it means.. couple of years back, consumer was just not aware of them (mostly)!

The drop rate % is much higher @ TLDs as compared to .in . One of the reason for this fact is less keyword rich domains registration, other you may consider is a bit higher renewal cost (that does not bother business users , but mostly domainers)

Indian regulations pertaining to cyber law / IT act is in line with Indian law and revised addendum to cyber law in 2010 and more stringent in 2012 (expected after budget). Adult & betting section, which is great contributor to domain registration in TLDs is not allowed in indian cctld and its market.

There are few indian domainers who have a handful of the premium domains but most of them as Samit pointed out is with european and US companies / individuals (i managed to buy one .co.in from them @ low xxxx). I have been tracking few hundred domains and they are getting renewed or exchanging hands in market. So, reseller market is good with great public and private sales in 2011.

At one point of time, was holding exclusively.in as well . So , few domains we hold might look useless if we think as domainer, and a gem, if thought as v.capitalist!

Surprisingly, Bigrock, Net4, Rediff, GoDaddy, Indiatimes ... all have started advertising on TV encouraging domain registration which was never seen any few years back!!!

 

[Alan Glennon]

Apparently per an InRegistry request, Godaddy is no longer including .in domains in their auctions.

 

[silentg]

Saree and sarees sold a good $x,xxx on Sedo recently.

 

[sashas]

I sold Rating.in for mid-xxx figures around an year or so back. It was a decent investment for me, given that I was able to buy it for mid xx.

The internet in India is getting a little bit ridiculous. Some time back, Adam posted that the Indian Government seized Lund.in for 'obscene' content. Now the government wants to censor Facebook and Google. Despite being a democracy, we are functioning like China, which is a shame.

As an Indian, I've begun to doubt the India success story, especially given the way the government has been functioning over the past few years - populist, socialist policies with little to no economic reforms, massive unchecked corruption, increasing censorship and absolutely horrendous infrastructure wherever the government is involved. Not what a capitalist democracy should be like.

 

[ryanmlanane]

Adam PM portfolio with asking price.

I have a debt to dig myself out of - but I will be focusing on strong names ONLY when I re-enter.

Problem is India is a slowly progressing market. It has gotten MUCH better the last 6 months. However, remember in India $50 - $200 in profit is like a half a years average working person salary.

Next Gen is heavily into IT - Infrastructure will improve (for Internet) and it WILL see a boom similar to .com caused by U.S. internet growth .. And of course, good old porn

Don't care what anyone says porn helped make the internet what it is - .in restricting that is damaging but it is illegal there.

I know someone selling adult domain getting 300 uniques per day couldn't get 300 for it - why ? Can't promote or even forward .in names to other adult web sites

Needless to say, very interested in your list - especially GEO ... Reseller priced of course. Also, possibly willing to trade

 

[ecomindia]

Problem is India is a slowly progressing market. It has gotten MUCH better the last 6 months.

The stock market has gone way down in 2011, with high inflation, 1 dollar price at 54 rupees (increase of 15%-20%, now has gone back to 48 rupees by help of govt. & RBI) and job market not either looking good, only safe investment being real-estate. Yes, still of these challenges, indian people are now exploring anf getting more aware of online channels.

However, remember in India $50 - $200 in profit is like a half a years average working person salary.

When someone speak about a salary in India of $50-100 = half yr salary of indian, then few things:
1) you talk about indian market performance and then compare the salary of a daily wager, labor .
When we talk about money , you talk about in context to the market (here, online). These people do not access net and do not even know probably what internet is! Internet users penetration is increasing in double figures for last 5 years, and the segment are educated and are earning well, probably a day salary to a week salary of $50-100. Any IT company fresher joins with basic knowledge is about $200 / month

Next Gen is heavily into IT - Infrastructure will improve (for Internet) and it WILL see a boom similar to .com caused by U.S. internet growth .. And of course, good old porn

.COM boom did blasted in 2000-2001 and then it was all silent. Major takeovers, venture capitalist vanished . Now for last 2 years, It is back to the bubble (and that is a worry). Yes, the graph is rising at very fast pace and e-commerce ventures are coming up with major financial backups - flipkart, naaptol, snapdeal to name few.,,

Don't care what anyone says porn helped make the internet what it is - .in restricting that is damaging but it is illegal there. I know someone selling adult domain getting 300 uniques per day couldn't get 300 for it - why ? Can't promote or even forward .in names to other adult web sites

India may be known for **x due to it's rich culture and history. But, ifyou read through the paintings, books, idols... it was guidance and with all respect. You can always run a **x related website if it is for guidance (and not fun) and sell medicines only if you are authorized to sell. We are not tough or restrict users (we are democracy), but we have our ideologies and culture which does not allow to monetize on p**n.

no offence to anyone, just a clarification on the points found to have wrongly stated without any facts and awareness of indian market, thanks

 

[Wot]

I have made well over $xxx,xxx in the last 6 years from .co.in/.in names so I guess there is/was some sort of market?

FYI-First ever dedicated .co.in/.in auction also coming up on Sedo.com 31st May.