Racial hate, nazism and faschism prohibited by law?

[Jonathan]

Having all that said, how often does it happen in the US that KKK, nazis and simillar movements (eventhough they are being closely monitored by security agencies) take action that leads to a death or serious injury of innocent citizens?

Not as often as the death or serious injury of innocent citizens occur from other sources.

 

[jberryhill]

This just in....

ATHENS (Reuters) - A Greek court will rule on Wednesday whether to allow sales of a cartoon book from Austria depicting Jesus Christ as a drinking buddy of Jimi Hendrix and a marijuana-smoking, naked surfer.

Cartoonist Gerhard Haderer was found guilty by a Greek court of "malicious public blasphemy" this year and received a six-month suspended prison sentence for his take on the life of Christ -- but he can only be detained if he comes to Greece.

 

[seeker]

I read about it in the news.
the decision has been appealed, but strangely enough the majority of people polled support the decision.
Although I find this descision to be a blow to freedom of speech, i can also understand the reaction of the people.

 

[csitenet]

is there any direct racism in the forum? if so may i have the link?

 

[Restecpa]

Thanks John, interesting news.

Seeker: First of all, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not hating here nor trying to heat things up - please understand that You said "In Greece, I can easily walk down the street with a nazi sign. No government official will stop me." Are you 100% sure about this or is it just what you would expect from a liberal, democratic country? Because if that's true, this would mean (IMO) that Greece has double standards as far as freedom of speech goes. Either way, six-month suspended prison sentence for "malicious public blasphemy" doesn't sound too liberal to me - unless there is something about this story that we don't know, which is quite possible.

Shouldn't a cartoon book depicting Jesus Christ as a drinking buddy of Jimi Hendrix and a marijuana-smoking, naked surfer classify as humor? Because I doubt author was trying to "rewrite the history" with it.. not that he could anyway.

Please keep us posted, I'd like to know how it ends Seeker. Thanks.

 

[csitenet]

I registered stormfront.INFO , think its worth making an Anti stormfront.org

 

[Restecpa]

is there any direct racism in the forum? if so may i have the link?

I'm sure it's not hard to find, I've seen it before but can't be arsed to read through that crap again.

They even post lists of jews (probably other "lower" beings as well) including area and occupation info etc... I find that objectionable as it puts those people in harms way.

 

[csitenet]

if that is so you can make a case to the registrar to delete the domain. i know of NO icann acredited registrars that allow racism / abusive domains even once reported! I submited a email to their hosting provider to see what they have to say about hosting this site!

 

[seeker]

Shouldn't a cartoon book depicting Jesus Christ as a drinking buddy of Jimi Hendrix and a marijuana-smoking, naked surfer classify as humor? Because I doubt author was trying to "rewrite the history" with it.. not that he could anyway.

Please keep us posted, I'd like to know how it ends Seeker. Thanks.

Yes, it should be seen as humor.
There are aspects of this story that are complicated, as the church of Greece 'sued' the book's author. The case is far from finished though.
Also, there is a clause in the local law that one can not insult symbols of the nation. For example, one is not allowed to burn the flag.
The case was submitted with similar, but not exactly the same case.
In either case, I am sure the outcome will be over ruled once the court of appeals hears the case. There are all sorts of ridiculous outcomes that get rejected at the appeals court daily.
Will keep you posted.
And yes, i do believe Greece is one of the most (or in the top 5 most) liberal countries in Europe as far as free speach is concerned and as far as human rights are concerned.

 

[Theo]

Greece is still a homogenous, xenophobic nation. I am saying that, having spent 30 years there and almost 10 outside of it. There is a single religion and anything blasphemous against "the Holy" can be prosecuted by law. The state and the church are not separate.

Don't ask me what my personal opinion is on this; my views are rather liberal, much like Seeker said. The folks from the US also need to understand that even the most right-wing (excluding fascists!) party in Greece would be considered liberal in the US :-D

 

[octobus]

It makes a lot sense, radistar :-D

 

[Restecpa]

I don't want to take this off-topic but I seem to be getting a lot of heat because of this thread, so I feel the need to explain a few things.

What Americans here don't seem to understand in regards to this (European feelings and my outrage) is, that while lots of Americans have died by the hand of nazism too (292,000 soldiers), it was soldiers who were sent there to fight (fight didn't take place on american soil, apart from the Pearl Harbor attack, which also triggered the US to join the anti axis alliance) while their families were "safe" at home. On the other hand, there is Europe that was plagued by the nazis, their homes were burned, women, children and families were butchered, hanged, shot, mutilated, tortured, thrown to dogs, burried alive, sent to concentration camp, used for hard labour, had their limbs cut off, abused, raped, burnt, beaten to death and more. Many Europeans lost everything during WW2, so Americans can't quite relate to this nor understand our feelings towards nazism and fascism. It just hasn't struck you as hard as it did us.

Perhaps the closest that you can get to understanding this is if you think of "September 11th" and the impact it had on your country. That day approx 5.000 people died (let's not argue whether it was 2.000 or 8.000). In WW2, as result of Nazism: approx 60.000.000 people died. Now ask yourself: Would Osama bin Ladens and Al Qaeda supporters be allowed to march the american streets and talk about how they worship bin Laden and can't wait for next terrorist attack? Would they be allowed to talk how they hate americans and can't wait for them to die in bomb attacks? Would police still protect them because of the freedom of speech or would they be shipped to Guantanamo Cuba? 60 million = 12.000 times 5.000 and by saying this I'm not trying to degrade the tragedy of 9/11 or importance of 5.000 lifes lost, but rather emphasize how enormous number of 60mio deaths is. WW2 was nothing but a long lasting terror attack either.. It was terror after terror, year after year.

I can't vouch these figures are 100% correct as they come from faqs.org, but I believe they are a good indicator:

"It is estimated that about 55 million people died in the European theater during World War II. Globally a total of over 60 million people died in WWII and of those 60 million, more were civilian than soldiers. The Soviet Union lost the most with 25 million deaths, but only about a third were combat related. China's death toll is incomplete but estimates are between 15 and 22 million, Poland had 6 million deaths including 3 million Jews, roughly 20% of its prewar population, Germany lost 4 million soldiers and 2 million civilians, many of them women, Japan had 1.2 million battle deaths and another 1.4 million soldiers listed as missing, almost 1 million civilians were killed in the bombing raids between 1944 and 1945, over 1.7 million Yugoslavs and 500,000 Greeks died in the war, France lost 200,000 soldiers and 400,000 civilians, Italy lost 330,000 people, Hungary lost 147,000 men in combat, Bulgaria lost 19,000 in combat, Romania lost 73,000 in combat, Great Britain lost 264,000 soldiers and 60,000 civilians in bombing raids, the United States lost 292,000 soldiers, the Dutch lost 10,000 soldiers and 190,000 civilians, Australia lost 23,000 men in combat, Canada 37,000 soldiers, India lost 24,000 men in battle, New Zealand 10,000 and South Africa 6,000. These totals do not include the 6 million Jews who perished in the Final Solution of Nazi Germany or the 17 million dead as a result of Japan's policies in Asia from 1931 to 1945."

Having that said, I'd like to thank the Americans for their help during WW2 and their efforts to help us liberate the Europe from the grasp of nazism. You can all be proud of your parents and grandparents who fought overseas for our (worlds) better tomorrow.

Hopefully none of you will be offended by this post. If however you are, please calmly read it again and you will see it's written with respect and good intentions.

Thank you for reading.

 

[Theo]

Having lived on both the european and the american continents, I can assure you there are two speeds for the matters you mentioned - which are very accurate. However, in terms of social interaction you need to understand that the US likes to promote itself as a free speech advocate, as long as no laws are being broken.

The real question is, what can one do to counterfight those that promote fascism etc. that would not, in itself, break any laws.

 

[Restecpa]

Having lived on both the european and the american continents, I can assure you there are two speeds for the matters you mentioned - which are very accurate. However, in terms of social interaction you need to understand that the US likes to promote itself as a free speech advocate, as long as no laws are being broken.

The real question is, what can one do to counterfight those that promote fascism etc. that would not, in itself, break any laws.

I totally understand what you guys mean, Radistar.. But hasn't USA drawn it's free speech line with September 11th too? (remember I was talking about having to draw the line somewhere and I got replies such as "Who are you/we to decide where to draw the line?" etc)

 

[jberryhill]

In WW2, as result of Nazism: approx 60.000.000 people died. Now ask yourself: Would Osama bin Ladens and Al Qaeda supporters be allowed to march the american streets and talk about how they worship bin Laden and can't wait for next terrorist attack?

Yes.

Ummm... it's not as if Nazis invaded Europe from the outside. A better comparison is the US Civil War - and, yes, if you want to fly the Confederate flag here, you certainly can.

You can also express your appreciation for Osama Bin Laden, as the people at www.godhatesfags.com do - They also have pictures of themselves at the WTC site with "Thank God for 9/11" and "God Hates America" signs.

Here, have a look:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2005/Thank_God_For_911_3-6-2005.jpg

http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2003/God_Hates_America_Harvey_Milk_High_9-8-2003.jpg

Here they are, celebrating the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor December 7:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2003/Thank_God_Dec_7_Hawaii_1-9-2003.jpg

Would police still protect them because of the freedom of speech or would they be shipped to Guantanamo Cuba?

Minor note: The detainees at Guantanamo were all captured in a foreign combat area. One US citizen was transferred out to a facility in the States. There is one - exactly one - US citizen who was detained on US soil as an "enemy combatant" upon entering the country, and he is being held in a Naval facility in Virginia. U.S. courts have ruled both the Guantanamo detentions and the "enemy combatant" detention are illegal. Nobody has been convicted for merely speaking favorably of Osama Bin Laden.

 

[seeker]

You can not compare a civil war and WWII. Each country was sovereign, and it just happened to be in one continent.More like Canada or mexico attacking the US IMO
Also, regarding the above site, John, do you really believe it is people from within the US that made those posts (not the site owner, I mean the content)????

 

[jberryhill]

John, do you really believe it is people from within the US that made those posts (not the site owner, I mean the content)??

Absolutely. Fred Phelps and his clan in Wichita are famous for their bizarre demonstrations.

 

[Dave Zan]

The more I read this, the more I recall an old 90s issue of Reader's Digest that
told this kind of story somewhere in Finland, I think. Too bad I don't have it
anymore, though.

Anyway, what the townspeople did was march en masse at the areas where
the "troublemakers" were talking their pieces about this and that, even though
the townspeople knew what they're going to hear was pure trash anyway. But
you know what they did soon after one of the leaders started speaking?

They turned their backs to them...literally.

It had happened over and over 'til the troublemakers finally gave up and just
went away.

 

[octobus]

"trouble makers" = skin heads?

 

[AndyM1988]

Everyone has the right to think what they think and say what they say. StormFront, as an example - is doing nothing illegal. They do have every right as the rest of us do, in the freedom of speech. It would be unfair if someone shut your site down and took away your domain just because a group of folks didn't like what you thought, same goes for sites like StormFront.

And for the record - it's spelt "fascism".