Big Money Confusing Public On Global Warming

[H2FC]

thanks scandiman for updating that news about the global warming report on tonight....I want everybody to watch it and I appreciate you helping me get the word out on it.
"NBC nightly news with Brian Williams will have a special report on global warming tonight (1/5/07) at 6:30pm eastern time. He announced that yesterday on his nightly news program".

 

[scandiman]

Scandiman, I dunno if your serious or not but I can tell you that, here in France, winters are warmer and warmer.
As dmtalk said, the difference between now and before is that the earth has warmed more in the last 30 years than it ever did in any 1000 year period before.

Got it ?

I have never seen any solid proof of this since there are no temp charts going back thousands of years. It is all guesses. Why do you accept this as fact? The earliest known thermometers date back to the 1500's but they weren't accurate until the 1700's which gives us at best about 300 years of measured data. Any temperature estimates before that time are exactly that, estimates. We are talking about 1 degree F (0.6 C). Good luck measuring that accurately in a 3,000 year old fossilized tree ring or some mud layer from the bottom of the ocean. Gimme a break.

warmth is good, whats wrong with that - better then freeze
imho

Better watch out, common sense is frowned upon in the discussion about global warming.

 

[Gerry]

And this relates how? Oh yea, this is really all about getting back at those @#$%@#$ big oil companies.

Let's see...the original post was about ExxonMobil cultivating the doubts about global warming and ExxonMobil is two conglomerations which merged into on mammoth mother of a company in 1999 and who happens to post record profits quarter after quarter after quarter at the expense of consumers paying extraordinarily high prices at the gas pumps on a global scale and reported the highest profit ever in the history of mankind posting a profit (yes, profit) of $36 Billion dollars in 2005 (with figures not in for 2006 yet but do expect about a 20-25% increase) and whose chairman was paid a staggering $400 million dollar retirement package (which equivalent to $141,000 a day, nearly $6,000 an hour for the time he did serve) all the while twice since November, big oil executives, including Raymond before his retirement, sat in Senate hearings defending their profits and deflecting accusations of gouging at the pump and along with the continued Exxon/Mobil insistance that we need to pay those prices for the continued exploration and development and delivery of the needed fossil fuels and attempts to downplay any alternative energy source as being a viable means for the future (not to mention not in their best interest) and the announcement last week that a federal judge has struckdown the landmark settlement awarded the natives and residents of Alaska after a 12 year battle in the courts over compensation for the Valdez spill in 1989 thanks to a drunkard boat captain...

yup, your right. My comment has nothing to do with the post that ExxonMobil is not too environmentally friendly and trying to sell us on a hocus-pocus scheme, scam or whatever...

Sorry

 

[scandiman]

Let's see...the original post was about ExxonMobil cultivating the doubts about global warming......yup, your right. My comment has nothing to do with the post that ExxonMobil is not too environmentally friendly and trying to sell us on a hocus-pocus scheme, scam or whatever...

Sorry

My apologies, I thought you were trying to connect the oil spill with global warming. The Valdez is a good example of a oil company making a mess of things. A great example close to me is the Lakeview gusher of 1909. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakeview_Gusher About the same amount of oil as the Valdez accident flowed for over a year from the ground and formed an oil lake near Bakersfield California. Oops. I wonder how well they cleaned that one up. Chances are you've never heard of it because the press doesn't want to talk about old news.

I am not here to make excuses for oil companies, just shedding light on the huge guesses behind global warming theories.

 

[Gerry]

My apologies, I thought you were trying to connect the oil spill with global warming.

It's an old game called connect the dots...

The original post has a link citing the ExxonMobil company. I do make an effort to read things before I offer commentary.

How bout dem domains, eh?

 

[scandiman]

It's an old game called connect the dots...

The original post has a link citing the ExxonMobil company. I do make an effort to read things before I offer commentary.

How bout dem domains, eh?

On a related domain note, I was surprised to see that GlobalWarming.mobi is a reserved premium name. I wonder if Exxon will try and buy it in auction

 

[tas38]

Check this story out about coal to super clean fuel oil, much greener and cleaner then normal oil as well. They are set to build a plant here in PA, only the people that own the plant also own the coal mines.

The USA has the largest amount of coal, we could replace all import oil with super clean fuel oil. We would only need to use, just short of double what is being used right now to do that. So we could replace all import oil, with a super clean fuel oil that works with everything right now. And plus still use all the coal that is being used right now, for everything else and have a 125 year supply of it.

We got way more coal fuel oil, then normal dirty oil right now. OPEC is pretty dumb, seeing how we will be doing this and with tech will cut what we use as well. And other means of greener fuels, soon we will not need their terrorist fueling oil. This is very good news, it will even force big oil to make their fuels much cleaner and greener. They should of invested that over a trillion bucks, in ways to make cleaner burning fuels, and keeping prices low instead of getting more oil.

They seem to think, they can rise the prices as high as they want. But they was to dumb, and counting all that money they are getting from us. That they did not seem to see this coming at all, lets see them buy their way out of this. They can not stop it now, OPEC is well on their way to losing their biggest oil buyer. And that ace they thought they had in china, got the 2nd most coal in the world.

The plant they are going to build here, already got every barrel they can make sold. And once the money starts rolling in, I'm sure many more plants will be started. This is not the only thing being done, sun power and wind power plants are being built as well. Other tech is going to reduce the need for fuel, and reduce the out put of CO2 as well. And this time, it gives us all the time we need to get a replacement. That will not run out, and will not damage the earth at all.

And if big oil see it now, and trys to take us hostage to stop it. Well then the gov't, will step in and take them over so they can't even stop it that way. Holding us hostage with oil, is a act of war and they know it. So there is no way they can stop it now, we are not there yet but it's well under way right now. The auto makers are under pressure as well, the states have started taking them to court already.

And everyone with in a few years, will know the truth about global warming. Bush was already forced to admit this stuff last month, he can not even stop his own people from telling the truth about it now. Bush said we have to move away from oil, and to greener options like bio fuels and other techs. He was called on it by a news guy, and could not lie or act as if we could not do anything about it. Watch closerly the hearings, that are going to be taking place soon.

The experts know for a fact, this is well beyond anything that could be normal in this short of time frame. Yes it got hot and cold before many times, but it always took way more time then it's happen now. They know what the CO2 does, and they know what levels there are. And how much they are going up, and also know the lines from human fuel usage CO2 out put, and the lines of global warming match 100%. As I said it was guessing before, but it is no longer guessing at all it's real.

AT no other time has so many experts, from some many different fields agree on anything. But yet 90% of them agree, that humans are indeed a big part of the global warming. So some of it may well be normal, but we are pushing it now as it's well beyond anything that could be normal. And all of the data, all points to the same thing. And also NASA's super computers, projected this weather and this would happen if it was global warming.

Here in northeast PA all night, it's has been 60% and it's Jan 6 in the dead of winter. Keep in mind, that we have always got very cold winters with snow way before this. If you have not heard about the coal story, then it is a must read for sure.

http://www.moneyweek.com/file/13377/could-coal-replace-oil.html

 

[keyser]

I have never seen any solid proof of this since there are no temp charts going back thousands of years. It is all guesses. Why do you accept this as fact? The earliest known thermometers date back to the 1500's but they weren't accurate until the 1700's which gives us at best about 300 years of measured data. Any temperature estimates before that time are exactly that, estimates. We are talking about 1 degree F (0.6 C). Good luck measuring that accurately in a 3,000 year old fossilized tree ring or some mud layer from the bottom of the ocean. Gimme a break.

No need to discuss about this, newbie rules !

 

[scandiman]

Check this story out about coal to super clean fuel oil, much greener and cleaner then normal oil as well. They are set to build a plant here in PA, only the people that own the plant also own the coal mines.

I haven't read this particular story but I've heard plenty about modernized coal processing, as well as oil sand processing. Current oil and gas market pricing is making these energy source viable. There is still a bunch of oil under California and off the coast but the environmentalists rule the roost in Sacramento. There are even some places in Cal where diesel grade fuel is bubbling up from the ground naturally. I've heard some estimates that with all known north American fossil fuel resources we have over a few hundred years supply accounting for growth. And I'm sure there is even more to discover. I'm all for not being dependent on terrorist states for our energy supply needs. These advances are great IMO. I'm hoping to install a photovoltaic grid on my house this year just because I want to watch the meter run backwards and get a check in the mail instead of paying a bill each month.

But global warming pundits have no love affair with coal as it is still part of their perceived problem. It is just another source of CO2 that provides a net increase in CO2 levels.

The experts know for a fact, this is well beyond anything that could be normal in this short of time frame. Yes it got hot and cold before many times, but it always took way more time then it's happen now. They know what the CO2 does, and they know what levels there are. And how much they are going up, and also know the lines from human fuel usage CO2 out put, and the lines of global warming match 100%. As I said it was guessing before, but it is no longer guessing at all it's real.

AT no other time has so many experts, from some many different fields agree on anything. But yet 90% of them agree, that humans are indeed a big part of the global warming. So some of it may well be normal, but we are pushing it now as it's well beyond anything that could be normal. And all of the data, all points to the same thing. And also NASA's super computers, projected this weather and this would happen if it was global warming.

My question is who says the levels from 100 years ago are "normal" to the earth? We didn't create the carbon, we have simply been reintroducing it to the ecosystem where it came from to begin with. All of it is from organic sources.

Here in northeast PA all night, it's has been 60% and it's Jan 6 in the dead of winter. Keep in mind, that we have always got very cold winters with snow way before this.

Everything I hear about our current US weather patterns points to El Nino. July 2006 in Sacramento had record Highs and all the Global Warming pundits had their day in the spotlight but they were nowhere to be found in 2004 when we had record lows. Weather patterns fluctuate. It's been doing that forever. Ever been to Yosemite? It is a few hundred miles south of here and it was carved out by a glacier long ago. That is about the same latitude as Virginia and Sicily. Hot times, cold times, we are just a blip in geologic time and the presumptions that people are causing a cataclysmic planetary change that will doom us all really borders on the ridiculous. If you must worry about planetary doom then I would be more worried about massive volcanic or solar events, the switch of the earth's magnetic polarity, or large meteors, all of which are real possibilities.

In keeping to the original topic, global warming politics have become intertwined with our collective contempt for many of the business practices of big oil companies and many of the nations that supply the resource to the modern world. Energy independence is a great goal on its own merit and should be pursued as such IMO. But sadly it is being packaged and sold with the Global Warming science fiction gloom and doom story. Yes the planet is getting slightly warmer. It's done it before and it will do it again.

 

[H2FC]

thanks for the history lesson and your understanding of the global warming hoax...its obvious to me you have many, many years of education and training in the science and study of climate changes. now, all you have to do is convince the dumb, uneducated, and ignorant 99% of climate scientists who are spreading this misinformation to the public. and, oh yes, you will also have to convince all the major countries of the world this is all a bunch of nonsense....that may be hard to do when their common sense is telling them that something is seriously wrong with our climate when our average world tempertures rise more in a 30 year span than it has ever done in the past over any 1000 year span......especially when they know the average temperture is rising in lock step with the increasing co2 levels in our atmosphere.....good luck

 

[scandiman]

thanks for the history lesson and your understanding of the global warming hoax...its obvious to me you have many, many years of education and training in the science and study of climate changes. now, all you have to do is convince the dumb, uneducated, and ignorant 99% of climate scientists who are spreading this misinformation to the public. and, oh yes, you will also have to convince all the major countries of the world this is all a bunch of nonsense....that may be hard to do when their common sense is telling them that something is seriously wrong with our climate when our average world tempertures rise more in a 30 year span than it has ever done in the past over any 1000 year span......especially when they know the average temperture is rising in lock step with the increasing co2 levels in our atmosphere.....good luck

It is your prerogative to ridicule me and quote questionable facts. No one can present a temperature chart older than 1700 because it doesn't exist. The one fact you present lacks accurate data for the first 70% of our most recent 1000 years span and yet we are told that the past 30 years are worse than 5230-5200 BC, 1000-1030AD, or whatever. This is simply ridiculous. I have the right to examine the facts for myself and question the conclusions. I encourage others to do the same and not simply buy what the talking heads are selling you.

 

[Duckinla]

Scandiman, DMTalk is a global warming fundamentalist. Just as bad as Christian fundamentalists, he is not interested in hearing an opposing point of view. That was not his reason for creating this thread.
He does not understand that the debate is not about whether the temperature has risen a half a degree in the last 10 years. He does not understand that we all agree on that. He does not understand that the debate is about how this compares to the long history of the earth. He's not interested in letting it go there. If you don't accept the point of view that this is completely abnormal and man-made, you are a fool. He has said so before several times.

 

[H2FC]

Scandiman, DMTalk is a global warming fundamentalist. Just as bad as Christian fundamentalists, he is not interested in hearing an opposing point of view. That was not his reason for creating this thread.
He does not understand that the debate is not about whether the temperature has risen a half a degree in the last 10 years. He does not understand that we all agree on that. He does not understand that the debate is about how this compares to the long history of the earth. He's not interested in letting it go there. If you don't accept the point of view that this is completely abnormal and man-made, you are a fool. He has said so before several times.

In many ways I suppose I could be classed as a fundamentalist....but I believe a "realist" would be more accurate. I don't believe that 99% of the world climate scientists are wrong and I do believe the extremely excessive amounts of co2 being pumped hourly into our atmosphere is causing a greenhouse effect that in turn is the main cause of our earth heating up more in the last 30 years than it ever has in any 1000 year time frame in eras of time they have measured with the use of core samples.

And, BTW mr duck....I can speak for myself...I'll let you know if I need your help.

 

[tas38]

( He does not understand that the debate is about how this compares to the long history of the earth. He's not interested in letting it go there. )

Well I do under stand that, and you claim 90% of the expert are full of crap and anyone that believe them. But yet the data is on their side, what data do you have to support we are full of crap. Simply saying you people are full of crap, this happened all the time does not cut it. There is tons of data to support what they are saying, and the few that claim other wise only do hit and runs. In the hopes, that people will not check their data that has been proved faulty already.

The bottom line is and I'll say it that a child can understand it, that any reasonable person looking at all the data right now. Would have to agree that a fairly good part of global warming, is from human CO2 out put. Can you show that CO2 does not act like a green house gas, if you can do that then yes we are all full of crap.

But if you can not do that, then you are full of crap it's just that simply. We know we are putting out CO2 gases, 12 tons ave per house hold in the USA. And they proved that CO2 gases, does indeed act like a green house gas. Now common sense tells you, if we are putting out all that CO2 gases and it act as a green house gas. Then there is just no way, anyone in their right mind could say it's not heating up the earth.

Now seeing how CO2 out put is going up, and the earth is warming up right beside it. Then how can anyone claim, that humans are not a big part of global warming. And it can be put like this, do we take the high road or the low road. And do we have the right, to make that choice for humans that come after us. If we do nothing, then the choice is made for us as the low road. And that choice is what humans after us, will live with no matter what.

I do under stand this all, and it's pretty simple as you can see. So if you want to say we are full of crap, then please prove that CO2 gases are not green house gases. It's just that simple, and has nothing to do with guessing at this point. Here is how I get CO2 gases, act as green house gases see link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

 

[Duckinla]

Now seeing how CO2 out put is going up, and the earth is warming up right beside it. Then how can anyone claim, that humans are not a big part of global warming.

Because we know it has happened before. We know the ice-caps have melted long before humans were here, right?
I can graph the change in gobal temperatures to a lot of things (rise in popularity of rap music?), not just CO2. But if this is not the first time it has happened, and rap music did not exist when it happened before, I must give serious consideration to the idea that rap music is not the cause of global warming. I must also give consideration to the posibility that the rise in temperatures is not permanent. Why? Because it wasn't permanent the first time.

 

[scandiman]

Even if CO2 is partially responsible, so what? The point is that temperature fluctuations have been occurring since the blue marble has been orbiting the sun. Nothing new. The sky isn't falling.

 

[Duckinla]

I personally am not afraid of the idea that humans could have to adapt to a changing environment and live differently than we do now. It might cause bad things in some places and good things in other places. There is so much northern land that is almost uninhabited right now because of the extreme cold conditions. Could be just what we need to shake things up a bit, give new people a chance to be pioneers. The old hierarchy crumbles and new people get a chance to rise to the top. Kind of like Fight Club, eh? I understand I would likely lose my home in Long Beach, but if that's the way it goes, I'm not planning to sit here and drown. Doubt it will happen, but the idea of it doesn't scare me silly. Canadians should be all in favor of it.

 

[scandiman]

Yea, we have been adapting to a changing environment all along. Might be a good time to buy some cheap ranch land in northern Canada. Just need to learn to finish my sentences with "eh"

 

[tas38]

Oh I get it now, you just don't care what we do to the earth.

Well that is good news, because the earth don't care if all human life is wipped out right back at you. You claim it happen before, but was humans a live when it happen before. And did you ask them, how they faired when it happen before to the earth ???

And while you are asking them that, how about asking them what kind of other life was here then. And how that life faired when it happen, oh ya I forgot no way of knowing that stuff, so I guess we will just have to take your word humans will make it ok right.

 

[Duckinla]

You claim it happen before, but was humans a live when it happen before. And did you ask them, how they faired when it happen before to the earth ???

The fact that we are here today means there can only be two possible answers to that question. 1, humans weren't here and therefor didn't cause it. Which could very well mean that we aren't causing it this time. Or 2, humans, even in a very primitive state, were able to survive it. Which would mean we are even better suited to survive it this time.

The question you need to start thinking about: If the earth has warmed before, what caused it to change back and go to the temperatures that we consider to be normal?

The deeper you think about these things, the more you realize that the earth probably just goes through warming and cooling cycles, with or without humans.