Enjoy unlimited access to all forum features for FREE! Optional upgrade available for extra perks.

Bodog.com is no more!

Status
Not open for further replies.

schepperer

Level 3
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
71
Reaction score
0
Actually, it is an asset held in the US... That is how it was able to be siezed, argued as an asset, that asset resides in the US.

No, you said .COM's (generally) are US assets but this is not true.
Domains are asset of their owners wherever they might be.

bodog.com domain was abused because registrar is in the U.S..

Its sad enough to shuffle off responsibility to the registrars. This can only be prevented if you choose a non-US registrar (like joker.com).
 
Dynadot - Expired Domain Auctions

DNQuest.com

DNF Addict
Legacy Exclusive Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
993
Reaction score
1
Where does the registry of the .Com lie? This can almost be subjective. The registry actually owns the .coms, we merely lease the domain. To me, there could be some gray area as far as ownership. The .coms do reside in the registry, the registrars are the vehicle to register domains from the registry. The point of view on this subject would depend on your view of domain ownership.
 

schepperer

Level 3
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
71
Reaction score
0
Where does the registry of the .Com lie? This can almost be subjective. The registry actually owns the .coms, we merely lease the domain. To me, there could be some gray area as far as ownership. The .coms do reside in the registry, the registrars are the vehicle to register domains from the registry. The point of view on this subject would depend on your view of domain ownership.

It really doesnt matter where the registry lies. A domain owner owns his domain. This is not a gray area. Its just that in a legal battle the inside country registrar seems to be the weak link of a chain (beside hosts) compared to a domain name owner abroad.
 

eq78

Level 6
Legacy Exclusive Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
626
Reaction score
12
That's not true the registrant is the lease holder he technically "owns" nothing
 

Dave Zan

Level 8
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Messages
1,700
Reaction score
10
IA domain owner owns his domain. This is not a gray area.

Then you might want to read your registrar's contract. Although people don't
generally read them, ignorance hasn't really been known to excuse anyone.

VeriSign currently holds the master database for .com and .net domain names
in Virginia. They're bound under any and all applicable US laws for as long as
they remain there, and it's at their discretion whether to follow a court order
or duke it out.
 

schepperer

Level 3
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
71
Reaction score
0
That's not true the registrant is the lease holder he technically "owns" nothing

Wrong. Registrant technically owns the domain. So domains are just similar to trademarks or land. All are property. For how long is another question.

Domain leasing is something completely different. Here the domain owner gives his property for someone else to actually use it. Nobody would pay millions of dollars to lease a domain name.

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-223597.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/biztech/07/23/domain.name.dealing.ap/index.html

Then you might want to read your registrar's contract. Although people don't
generally read them, ignorance hasn't really been known to excuse anyone.

VeriSign currently holds the master database for .com and .net domain names
in Virginia. They're bound under any and all applicable US laws for as long as
they remain there, and it's at their discretion whether to follow a court order
or duke it out.

Its about bodog.com. Its not about infrastructure. Its about courts that trying to take control (not ownership!) of domain names with help of registrars in the same country just because domain owner is based in another country and cannot be touched by any US court decision. Such development is more than just strange. I repeat my advice not to register or host domains with an US company to avoid damages like bodog.com owner experienced. Verisign is bound on US laws, thats right but no court ever did take control about a domain with help of Verisign as controller of .com/.net database. I cannot imagine this will change in future. Correct me if I am wrong.

If a domain name would be just leased from Verisign then they would be the first courts instrument to take control about a domain. But this is not reality. Its sad that US registrars are vulnerable just because US court decision isnt worth a penny internationally.
 

schepperer

Level 3
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
71
Reaction score
0
Wrong. Read your registrar's contract.

If you mean Registrar Accreditation Agreement or for example godaddys TOS theres nothing written. Or which kind of contract you mean?
 

Dave Zan

Level 8
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Messages
1,700
Reaction score
10
Or which kind of contract you mean?

The one where you checked the box beside something like "I have read the
agreement and agree to its terms" prior to registering your domain name. If
it's Go Daddy's, read number 7 of the yellow portion.
 

schepperer

Level 3
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
71
Reaction score
0
The one where you checked the box beside something like "I have read the
agreement and agree to its terms" prior to registering your domain name. If
it's Go Daddy's, read number 7 of the yellow portion.

"You agree that Go Daddy or its licensor holds all rights, title and interest in all Software and Services and all intellectual property, including other rights related to intangible property, unless otherwise indicated. You acknowledge that no title or interest in such Intellectual Property Rights is being transferred to You and You agree to make no claim of interest in any such Services or Software."


Ok I just saw it. So godaddy can do whatever they want with a customers domain name. Really worrying. STARGATE hasnt such an agreement. Until now I didnt spend time with reading registrars legal agreements. I still have some names with godaddy but I will transfer them all away by time. Registrant owns domain until he gives it up his property in advance to a registrar who has such agreement. Im wondering that godaddys agreement hasnt been fought by someone and can be legal.
 

maroulis

Level 8
Legacy Exclusive Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
2,168
Reaction score
1
"You agree that Go Daddy or its licensor holds all rights, title and interest in all Software and Services and all intellectual property, including other rights related to intangible property, unless otherwise indicated. You acknowledge that no title or interest in such Intellectual Property Rights is being transferred to You and You agree to make no claim of interest in any such Services or Software."


Ok I just saw it. So godaddy can do whatever they want with a customers domain name. Really worrying. STARGATE hasnt such an agreement. Until now I didnt spend time with reading registrars legal agreements. I still have some names with godaddy but I will transfer them all away by time. Registrant owns domain until he gives it up his property in advance to a registrar who has such agreement. Im wondering that godaddys agreement hasnt been fought by someone and can be legal.

Just to stir things a little, been looking into cyberlaw and for those really interested can look into ordering the bible "Cyberlaw, problems of policy and jurisprudence in the information age, 3rd edition"

"According to longstanding precedent and practice, the first court seized of jurisdiction of property, or asserting jurisdiction in a case requiring control over property, may exercise that jurisdiction to the exclusion of any other court."

This applies to in rem or quasi in rem cases and requires federal courts to decline jurisdiction over a particular property or res over which another court has already asserted jurisdiction.

The interesting case that used this doctrine was Cable News Network L.P. vs Cnnews.com. CNN Delaware LLP with principal place in Atlanta, Georgia whereas Maya Online Broadband Network (HK) is a Chinese company that is a subsidiary of a second Chinese company, Shanghai Online Broadband network.

Another interesting case of GlobalSantaFe Corp. vs GlobalSantaFe.com. Follows same format, the Corp based in US, the registrar Hangang Systems in Korea.

October 5 2001 filed ACPA in rem action against the domain name and won the order in April 1 2002 which directed Verisign and Hangang to transfer the domain to plaintiffs within 10 days of receipt of the order.

Hangang files injustion on April 9 2002 with District Court of Seoul and judge's write-up below:

"Tue, we cannot require a foreign court to yield when the US court was the first to assume jurisdiction, but neither can we acquiesce in a rule under which the US court recedes regardless of its priority in time. That rule would empower a defendant in the US to oust our courts of in rem jurisdiction merely by filling its own action int he courts of any hospitable country -- of which there would be no shortage if that were our rule."

Traditionally you could have Denny's store in London and somebody could open a Denny's store in Ontario even if you have previously established a TM in the name. The idea was that customers would not likely be confused due to geographical disparity...

With the internet though and domains one interesting case Panavision vs Panavision.com which was a website owned by Dennis Toeppen which included photos of the city of Pana, Ilinois. The District court and Ninth Circuit Court ruled that Toeppen had violated the Federal Trademark Dilution Act because Panavision's inability to use the panavision.com website diminished the "capacity of the Panavision marks to identify and distinguish Panavision's goods and services on the internet" (Panavision Int'l vs Toeppen, 141 F.3d 1316 (9th Cir. 1998).

In so doing, the court was, in effect expanding the geographical reach of TM law, at least with regard to domain names. So, while you still couldn't sue the guy in Ontario for owning violating your TM by choosing a confusingly similar name for its store (based on geographical disparity), you might now have a cause of action concerning dennys.com domain name even if someone registered the name ahead of you.

This led to the expansion of ACPA act and thus in the online context, trademark law is now far more likely to operate extraterritorially.

The issue is that any domain name relies on the Verisign registry an entity located within US district so your options are the following:

a) current registrar of the domain can cancel it by directing the registry to delete the registration from the Registry Database
b) Registry for the pertinent top-level domain can disable the domain by placing it "ON HOLD"
c) Registry can cancel a domain name by acting unilaterally to delete the registration information without the pertinent registrar's cooperation.

Again registering, transferring or deleting a domain typically involves interaction between the registrar and the registry and is governed by several contracts such as the registry-registrar agreement, the registrar accreditation agreement and the .com registration agreement. Thus, Verisign for each domain name in the ".com" TLD is responsible for maintaining and propagating the following information: i) domain name ii) the IP addresses of NS1 and NS2 of the registrar for the domain name iii) expiration date for registration.

The (c) option I listed above essentially instructs Verisign to act unilaterally to cancel the domain name by deleting the registration information in the registry database and removing the domain name from the TLD zone file without regard to current registrar's lack of cooperation and the normal contractual procedures for cancellation (as per Verisign & Registrar agreements).

Enom took option (b) but there's nothing to stop Verisign from deleting the domain should Enom or Bodog don't hand over the domain...

John B. can add more insight, but the way I see it Bodog is pretty much lost cause right now when it comes to bodog.com unless they counter-sue on some grounds that they are not in violation of the patent in dispute...
 

Dave Zan

Level 8
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Messages
1,700
Reaction score
10
Registrant owns domain until he gives it up his property in advance to a registrar who has such agreement. Im wondering that godaddys agreement hasnt been fought by someone and can be legal.

Unfortunately you don't seem to get it so I'll spell it out a bit for you. Most if
not all registrars' contracts don't issue ownership of a domain name to you in
any shape or form and spell out your limited rights.

I'm sure a few parties have fought such contracts. But properly-worded ones
have generally been upheld especially in US courts, generally anyway.

You can believe all you want you own the domain name. But that doesn't at
all change the fact your registrar's contract, which defines your relationship,
doesn't do so.

Feel free to challenge your registrar's contract in court if you're up to it. The
worst thing you can expect is they sue you for breach of contract, though.
 

HomerJ

Level 8
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
1,493
Reaction score
16
"You agree that Go Daddy or its licensor holds all rights, title and interest in all Software and Services and all intellectual property, including other rights related to intangible property, unless otherwise indicated. You acknowledge that no title or interest in such Intellectual Property Rights is being transferred to You and You agree to make no claim of interest in any such Services or Software."

I think you would need a lawyer to interpret this properly. Software and Services, and Intellectual Property Rights, are both capitalized ... are they defined elsewhere in the document? also given that it is taken out of the context of the entirety of the contract ... as in where it says "unless otherwise indicated" for example ...

this just raised a funny thought in my mind though.. if i sign a contract written in Klingon am i bound by it? (i don't read Klingon! :lol:)
 

Dave Zan

Level 8
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Messages
1,700
Reaction score
10
this just raised a funny thought in my mind though.. if i sign a contract written in Klingon am i bound by it? (i don't read Klingon! :lol:)

They don't seem to have a system for civil disputes, but plenty for personal
honor ones. :D
 

-ET-

Dn Guru©
Legacy Exclusive Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Messages
553
Reaction score
12
Whooa!...just went through this thread.how could this happen??...totally ridiculous. looking forward for reverse hijacking case soon.
 

DNQuest.com

DNF Addict
Legacy Exclusive Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
993
Reaction score
1
Whooa!...just went through this thread.how could this happen??...totally ridiculous. looking forward for reverse hijacking case soon.

May I suggest to reread the WHOLE thread again... this is not a domain case, it is an asset siezure case. Gee, I guess I should have said this before huh? Wait, I did, try reading posts 7, 22, 26,and 40 again.
 

jberryhill

Philadelphia Lawyer
Legacy Exclusive Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2002
Messages
2,574
Reaction score
12
Wow... this thread is a smorgasbord of issues.

I'm pressed for time, but I do want to comment on two points above.

First, yes, the .com registry is located in the US. Because the domain registrant does not have a contract with the registry, it is questionable whether that fact of location of the .com registry renders the domain name itself a seizable asset under a judgment.

Now, yes, as Maroulis notes, the ACPA authorizes a type of in rem action - a form of legal action which is against a thing (res) instead of a person. However, bodog.com was not an ACPA action. I have long argued that if it were self-evident that a domain name is a piece of property, then the ACPA would no need an explicit in rem provision. In other words, that part of the ACPA provides a procedural avenue to pursue a domain/trademark conflict under the law, but does not substantively define the nature of a domain name.

In fact, there is a Virginia Supreme Court ruling that a domain name is not property for the purpose of seizure by a bankruptcy creditor. There is not much of a difference between a bankruptcy creditor and a judgment creditor for seizure purposes, so the ACPA in rem provision is not relevant to the circumstances under which the bodog.com registration was seized.

Bodog.com made two clear mistakes. The patent suit aside, they should have known that in view of US anti-internet-gambling fever, it is imperative to minimize US contacts to the extent possible.

Second, even though they may have been perfectly comfortable in the fact that their foreign activities were probably unreachable under the asserted US patent, having someone running around with a default judgment is a dangerous thing. Skipping the jurisdictional issue, there were at least two very clear and relatively simple grounds for contesting the patent suit. The first being that they were not practicing the patented method in the US, and the second being that if the patent (which I haven't looked at) was drawn to a method of internet wagering per se, then it was voidable on the ground of sole illegal utility.

if i sign a contract written in Klingon am i bound by it? (i don't read Klingon! )

Provided that you know what the contract says, and that you intended to be bound by it. People sign contracts in languages they don't understand all of the time. For example, in settling a lawsuit in France, the settlement agreement was required to be in French, which neither I nor my client can read. Now, yes, we did have a certified translation, but the controlling document is the French one.

Because UDRP proceedings are, normally, supposed to be conducted in the language of the registration agreement, I have always wanted to see a registrar provide their registration agreement in Pig Latin, Gibberish, or some African tongue-clicking language.
 

DNQuest.com

DNF Addict
Legacy Exclusive Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
993
Reaction score
1
This was not filed under the ACPA, it was a patent lawsuit which went unanswered. This happened in the Nevada courts. A default judgement was awarded, then the case went to Washington State for enforcement (I have no idea why yet). The judge, John Erlick, stated the following:

From Erlick’s ruling: “The Court makes it clear that the intent of this Order is to allow the Plaintiff to liquidate or otherwise monetize the Domain Names without incurring any expense.”
“Plaintiff may decide not to auction the domain names, and instead may operate the Domain Names in any manner it sees fit, including exploiting any traffic to the sites accessible via the domain names,” Erlick concluded

I am trying to find more information
 

maroulis

Level 8
Legacy Exclusive Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
2,168
Reaction score
1
This was not filed under the ACPA, it was a patent lawsuit which went unanswered. This happened in the Nevada courts. A default judgement was awarded, then the case went to Washington State for enforcement (I have no idea why yet). The judge, John Erlick, stated the following:

From Erlick’s ruling: “The Court makes it clear that the intent of this Order is to allow the Plaintiff to liquidate or otherwise monetize the Domain Names without incurring any expense.”
“Plaintiff may decide not to auction the domain names, and instead may operate the Domain Names in any manner it sees fit, including exploiting any traffic to the sites accessible via the domain names,” Erlick concluded

I am trying to find more information

John first of all thanks for the feedback... Let me clarify, I never said it was ACPA, I started off saying let me stir things up, mainly because people think an offshore registrar would have saved the day. Basically under ACPA you can run but can't hide....
 

HomerJ

Level 8
Legacy Platinum Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Messages
1,493
Reaction score
16
thanks for the insight John. to a laymen reading legalese it sometimes feels like you are reading a foreign language. i guess anything that is hard to understand is 'foreign' in a sense. The common wisdom is don't sign something if you don't know what it says. Well, lets all be honest here, we sign contracts, or rather, check the 'i agree to terms' boxes all of the time, .. but do we really understand what they say? checking the 'i agree to terms' box, has become an unavoidable way of life in our age of convenience. Because we can not take seriously the idea of having a lawyer review every T.o.S. for every forum, social networking site, email account, etc. etc. that we join, it becomes second nature to read them over and assume we know what it all says and means, or in some cases, just check all boxes, even the ones involving services we entrust w/ our money or personal info, without really understanding them. just my thoughts, sorry if this is becoming off topic.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Who has viewed this thread (Total: 1) View details

Who has watched this thread (Total: 7) View details

The Rule #1

Do not insult any other member. Be polite and do business. Thank you!

Members Online

Sedo - it.com Premiums

IT.com

Premium Members

MariaBuy

Upcoming events

Our Mods' Businesses

UrlPick.com

*the exceptional businesses of our esteemed moderators

Top Bottom