How to handle DNF member non-payment?

HeavyLifting · Nov 10, 2003

mr webname - PM sent

JuniperPark · Nov 10, 2003

Originally posted by Spider
He said would you take $50, not I will give you $50. I think that makes a big difference.

I don't think the law (at least here) would agree with you. "Would you take" is a phrase that is generally considered an offer by the average person, and mentioning a specific amount in money ("consideration") pretty much nails it. If he said "How much are you ASKING", "What would you take", or "I am taking a survey, would you sell this name for $50 if offered", those would be questions, not offers.

Aside from that, Android demonstrates knowledge that he has done something wrong by failing to respond to his offer's acceptance, TWICE. His nonsense excude about being "too busy" falls by the wayside because 1) The message tracker shows he DID read my PMs and 2) He made several public posts during this period and 3) He posted again in the "wanted" forum ASKING people to PM him.

Now that he's busted and exposed, he's crying like a scared little girl, and threatening to leave DNF. Poor victim, our sense of ethics just aren't worth his time. I don't know how we'll possibly continue on without him....

HeavyLifting · Nov 10, 2003

Originally posted by JuniperPark

Now that he's busted and exposed, he's crying like a scared little girl, and threatening to leave DNF.

Yeah Juniper, i'm shaking in my boots.

I think the real lesson here is that JuniperPark will betray you and threten to damage your reputation by creating a public stink about an issue before having the respect to contact you first about it. that's exactly what JuniperPark has done with this thread. I never got a simple message from him saying "excuse me but could you please explain yourself and tell me why you haven't completed this transaction."

Android

JuniperPark · Nov 10, 2003

Originally posted by Android

Yeah Juniper, i'm shaking in my boots.

I think the real lesson here is that JuniperPark will betray you and threten to damage your reputation by creating a public stink about an issue before having the respect to contact you first about it. that's exactly what JuniperPark has done with this thread. I never got a simple message from him saying "excuse me but could you please explain yourself and tell me why you haven't copleted this transaction."

Android

REALLY? What's this doing in my SENT PMs box then?

Sent 10-30-03 6:53AM
Date/Time Read: 10-30-2003 07:23 AM by Android

Re: Wireless names
Yes, on WirelessSky.com you offered $50, I accepted, and you never paid for it...

izopod · Nov 10, 2003

For what it's worth, I bought a name from Android once, and had no problem with him being a seller.

As far as how good of a "buyer" he is I can't speak to that as I've never personally sold a name to him.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with asking someone if they would take "$50" for a name, especially if the seller is being a little evasive. We've all done it. "Go ahead, what would you offer?"---If the buyer comes back with a "Would you take X", I don't think this necessarily constitutes a "deal". The Seller MAY take the $50, but he also MAY take $20----The buyer has to have some wiggle room here.

I think when a deal is a deal is when BOTH Buyer and Seller agree to price...Example (sometimes these are good to clarify things):

Seller: What would you offer?
Buyer: Would you take $100??
Seller: Yes
Buyer: OK I WILL SEND YOU $100 (a deal is consumated when the BUYER agrees to send money. Action on BUYER IS important, otherwise there is no deal

Here is an example of when THERE IS NO DEAL:

Seller: What would you offer?
Buyer: Would you take $75??
Seller: Yes

No response from buyer.... No deal occured. REASON: The Buyer never said if HE was willing to buy the name or send the money. He simply put a "number" out there to see what the seller was willing to take. What WE DO HAVE here is someone who needed to contact seller and say they weren't interested anymore (lack of money, etc). A lack of respect is what the buyer is actually guilty of here. NOT BREAKING A DEAL...

Everyone, again, take a step back.

puxa2 · Nov 10, 2003

I think a lot of the problem here is just poor communication.
Hope you guys can work it out.

HeavyLifting · Nov 10, 2003

Originally posted by JuniperPark

REALLY? What's this doing in my SENT PMs box then?

Sent 10-30-03 6:53AM
Date/Time Read: 10-30-2003 07:23 AM by Android

Re: Wireless names
Yes, on WirelessSky.com you offered $50, I accepted, and you never paid for it...

i took that as you reminding me of the history as you saw it. i didn't take that to mean your next move would be to debate whether or not to "out" me in a public thread. if everyone opened a thread like that whenever a deal didn't go smoothly or there was confusion, then i don't think anybody would get very far.

izopod · Nov 10, 2003

Simply put, an "offer" is a negotiation tool. Sometimes it's used effectively an other situations it isn't.

JuniperPark · Nov 10, 2003

Originally posted by izopod
For what it's worth, I bought a name from Android once, and had no problem with him being a seller.

As far as how good of a "buyer" he is I can't speak to that as I've never personally sold a name to him.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with asking someone if they would take "$50" for a name, especially if the seller is being a little evasive. We've all done it. "Go ahead, what would you offer?"---If the buyer comes back with a "Would you take X", I don't think this necessarily constitutes a "deal". The Seller MAY take the $50, but he also MAY take $20----The buyer has to have some wiggle room here.

I think when a deal is a deal is when BOTH Buyer and Seller agree to price...Example (sometimes these are good to clarify things):

Seller: What would you offer?
Buyer: Would you take $100??
Seller: Yes
Buyer: OK I WILL SEND YOU $100 (a deal is consumated when the BUYER agrees to send money. Action on BUYER IS important, otherwise there is no deal

Here is an example of when THERE IS NO DEAL:

Seller: What would you offer?
Buyer: Would you take $75??
Seller: Yes

No response from buyer.... No deal occured. REASON: The Buyer never said if HE was willing to buy the name or send the money. He simply put a "number" out there to see what the seller was willing to take. What WE DO HAVE here is someone who needed to contact seller and say they weren't interested anymore (lack of money, etc). A lack of respect is what the buyer is actually guilty of here. NOT BREAKING A DEAL...

Everyone, again, take a step back.

I agree with most of what you said, although what you describe isn't what happened in the Andriod deal.

But you have me wondering, if I were to go to the Sales board and post "I'm asking $100 for Business.com" (assuming I owned) it, and people responded "SOLD", should I sell it to them? Or say "haha just testing, how about $1000?"

OR, what if I accepted and offer and agreed to a price, as I did with Andriod, and sold it to someone else a few hours later? I don't think that would be right, but if we're dealing someone like Android's lack of ethics, I would be expected to take the name off the market indefinately, turning down other sales.

Notice that Andriod initially didn't deny what happened, in fact he read my initial post and RECOGNIZED HIMSELF. As this thread has progressed, he has switched between defending, denying, justfying, and claiming "victimhood" all within a matter of hours. All the actions of someone who knows he screwed up, but is not mature enough to accept responsibility for his actions.

WebCat · Nov 10, 2003

Izopod- you got it EXACTLY!

Android- there is a lesson here for you as well. Communicate! People feel much more confortable when you let them know what's going on.

Juniper- since you felt there was an offer to buy, you could also have sent a PM something like this:

Dear Android-If I do not hear from you by xx:xx o'clock, I will assume you have withdrawn your offer.

That way this entire thread would have been unnecessary, Juniper would not feel cheated and Android would not feel attacked.

So...... can we please get past this and get on with business? Can you guys shake hands and agree to disagree?

WebCat

HeavyLifting · Nov 10, 2003

he has switched between defending, denying, justfying, and claiming "victimhood" all within a matter of hours

i don't deny anything. i've got nothing to deny. you see things a certain way, i see them another. it's just that you are so rediculously bullheaded that you assume your perspective must be correct and you must continue this nonsense.

just drop it. or better yet, sue me.

"sad" is the only word i can come up with to describe this.

GeorgeK · Nov 10, 2003

This thread might be better in the Legal section of this board. I'm sure Berryhill and others might have better perspective on what constitutes an "offer".

Personally, as a non-lawyer, the statement "Would you accept $X?" constitutes an offer (which is then subject to the other person's acceptance), but perhaps the lawyers have a better perspective.

nicpal · Nov 10, 2003

When someone makes an offer on a domain it doesn't bind anyone to buying it. C'mon. Maybe I should stop using Domain Seller Pro then, because I received lots of "offers" or in this case "would you take" scenarios. In any business deal there are several stages to purchasing any product and Android was rightfully in the initiating stage. He can back out at anytime, even if the seller agrees to the price. Granted, a simple reply to the PM stating your disinterest in the domain would have been good business etiquette and most likely closure to this offer. But in this case the outing of a non-paying member wouldn't even apply. This is childish slander and all that is happening is that Android is unfortunately getting a bad rap for nothing.

WebCat · Nov 10, 2003

Originally posted by GeorgeK
Personally, as a non-lawyer, the statement "Would you accept $X?" constitutes an offer (which is then subject to the other person's acceptance), but perhaps the lawyers have a better perspective.

George, there are MANY possible reasons a person might ask that exact question:

1) I am doing research into names like this. Would you accept......

2) I am selling some names like this. Would you accept......

3) I am a curious newbie. Would you accept......

4) I am writing an article. Would you accept......

5) I am thinking about buying your domain. Would you accept......

and YES, even

6) I want to buy this domain. Would you accept...... , and if so, I WILL buy it.

Juniper and some others automatically ascribe meaning #6 to the question, and ignore all other possible interpretations, whether or not that was the intent of the asker. Then because the seller chose to put a meaning on the question that the asker did not intended, some are willing to accuse the asker of being a cheat.

The words that keep ringing in my mind are "misunderstanding" and "false accusations", "overreacting", and "defamation of character".

The lesson here? NEVER, NEVER ask anyone what they are willing to accept for any product, because in some people's minds that makes you 100% liable to buy it.

Ask a car dealer if he will take $12,000.00 for a car? That's it, you bought it! (used car dealers rejoice!)
Ask a homeowner if he will take $150,000.00 for a house? Better start packing! (realtors everywhere rejoice!)
Ask a domainer if he will take $50.00 for a domain? You are a crook if you decide not to buy it. (God help us!)

According to this thinking, we have now entered an era where asking for a price constitutes a LEGALLY BINDING offer to purchase. How ridiculous.

nicpal · Nov 10, 2003

I concur that some in our frivolous society might subscribe to that thinking but as you stated

because in some people's minds that makes you 100% liable to buy it.

In some people's mind's being the operative term here. In some people's mind's Elvis is still alive. I see a lot of deals and offers go down as a realtor, but most people know that an offer is just an offer. That is why we have binding paperwork to close deals....not speculation that someone will follow up on their offer!

We rely on each other here at DNForum at their word for buying and selling, but unless someone says to me, "okay I'll buy the domain from you." or posts sold in a thread, then I'd say that an offer is just that....an offer.

WebCat · Nov 10, 2003

Originally posted by nicpal
We rely on each other here at DNForum at their word for buying and selling, but unless someone says to me, "okay I'll buy the domain from you." or posts sold in a thread, then I'd say that an offer is just that....an offer.

Well said! In fact, in just the last 10 minutes I closed a deal on a domain with another DNF member.

He asked for a certain type, I responded, he asked for a price, I gave it, then finally he responded with "SOLD". NOW we may have a sale!

At no time during the transaction did I ascribe any intent to his messages but to inquire. And even now, if for some reason he had to back out, I would certainly not go running around calling him a cheat! I believe he's a human, just like me.

WebCat

JuniperPark · Nov 10, 2003

Webcat -

You are making excuses for Android's behavior that even he himself has not made. He has NOT said he is a journalist. He is NOT publishing a research paper. He does NOT work for a polling company. He represents himself as a domain name buyer, and therefore only your #6 applies.

Wow... this is kind of like OJ's lawyers who said OJ couldn't have committed the murders because he was simultaneously sleeping, playing golf, and packing for a trip.

----
The words that keep ringing in my mind are "misunderstanding" and "false accusations", "overreacting", and "defamation of character".
---

Didn't you read Android's posts? He already admitted that my accusation is accurate, and I have already posted the proof. Show me the "false accusations", "defamation", etc... ??

JuniperPark · Nov 10, 2003

Originally posted by WebCat
The lesson here? NEVER, NEVER ask anyone what they are willing to accept for any product, because in some people's minds that makes you 100% liable to buy it.

Wrong. You make an offer and MENTION THE PRICE YOU ARE WILLING TO PAY, you are 100% liable to buy it.

Android has made it clear that he doesn't take responsibility for his actions, and feels that it's OK to make offers he won't honor. I think he would be much happier with like-minded people on eBay.

HeavyLifting · Nov 10, 2003

(yawn)

WebCat · Nov 10, 2003

Juniper Park- Did you even read this?

Originally posted by Android
........ the original "offer" as it is now being called was a price inquiry. the verbatim text is:

"would you take $50 for xxxxxxxx.com?"

i often try to measure a sellers willingness to sell at a certain level before making a purchase. i have a limited budget and i do my research before spending.

i'm a web designer. sometimes people say to me, "hey could you build me a site for $XXXX." if they don't become my client, i don't drop what i'm doing and run around trying to "out" them and "warn" others.

Or This?

Originally posted by nicpal
I see a lot of deals and offers go down as a realtor, but most people know that an offer is just an offer. That is why we have binding paperwork to close deals....not speculation that someone will follow up on their offer!

........ unless someone says to me, "okay I'll buy the domain from you." or posts sold in a thread, then I'd say that an offer is just that....an offer.

Either it was a "price inquiry" or it was an "offer." Android says he was making a price inquiry. You say it was a legally binding offer. Is there even the slightest possibility it was a misunderstanding with no evil intent to do you this great harm that you apparently feel is worth all this hullabaloo?