IDN Naysayers

[Theo]

Yes, any thread I participate in generates interest. That's a fact. :-D

On the subject of degradation, there is nothing of IDN's left for me to degrade. The IDN's are the riff-raff of domains. Personally, I place them at the very end of the virtual food chain, even beyond any exotic TLD's like .name and .coop.

Did you realize that even IDN domains have a portion that is typed in English?
Not sure if our friends in Bangladesh prefer to type (phonetic example) "banghi hanghi koorbash doov DOT COM". Same for Chinese etc. IDN is a totally 'bastard' child.

 

[Rubber Duck]

Yes, any thread I participate in generates interest. That's a fact. :-D

On the subject of degradation, there is nothing of IDN's left for me to degrade. The IDN's are the riff-raff of domains. Personally, I place them at the very end of the virtual food chain, even beyond any exotic TLD's like .name and .coop.

Did you realize that even IDN domains have a portion that is typed in English?
Not sure if our friends in Bangladesh prefer to type (phonetic example) "banghi hanghi koorbash doov DOT COM". Same for Chinese etc. IDN is a totally 'bastard' child.

If you had actually bothered to read it the opening thread was about how IETF are working to resolve the problem of internationalising the first level. It will be about producing different representation of the various TLDs to suit the local audience. The significance is that the it will be different representations rather new manifestations, which some of the registries and registrars would have preferred.

This means that the changes will not diminish, but only enhance the value of existing registered domains.

You clearly have failed to understand the principal that a domain name is only an alias for an IP number which is translated into binary code in any case. A website enquiry is to an IP number at a web host. To know which webhost is required the Nameserver is looked up at the registry and the IP address of the webhost is identified. The webhost then directs the enquiry to the IP address that corresponds to the domain name. All this can actually be done without domain names at all. We only have them because humans find them easier to recognise and remember than sequences of numbers. The IDN system is merely an extension of this system to enable those who are not fortunate enough to have a language that uses the alphabet on which the DNS is based to have reasonable access to the internet.

Your remarks in regard to IDNs and their value is not only crass, but deeply insulting to those who share cultures that are in many cases much older in many ways much more civilised than our own. The populations using such languages vastly outnumber those who speak English as a first language, and they will soon have more economic clout than we do. It might be wise to try and learn to rub along with them a little.

You previously described your view points as educated. I am afraid I would have to take issue with that!

Regards
Dave Wrixon

 

[Theo]

You are a dreamer and I tip my hat off to you. But I take offense in the way you share your delusions as if it's the next big thing.

Also, try to spare me the cultural tirade; I'm Greek and I can tell you, there is no future in IDN - that comes from someone who appreciates culture and diversity but has no delusions about how technology is implemented; it's western-centric.

You need to try to avoid spreading feeble attempts to push up a fad's popularity as if it were revolutionary.

On the subject of how the DNS works, I need no patronizing. I've used the Internet for the past 12 years and I'm a programmer, systems analyst and web developer.

There is a reason why the Tower of Babel was not completed. Use this as your paradigm and perhaps you'll understand why you're betting on the wrong horse.

I split my post into short sentences so that you can maintain focus.

 

[Rubber Duck]

You are a dreamer and I tip my hat off to you. But I take offense in the way you share your delusions as if it's the next big thing.

Also, try to spare me the cultural tirade; I'm Greek and I can tell you, there is no future in IDN - that comes from someone who appreciates culture and diversity but has no delusions about how technology is implemented; it's western-centric.

You need to try to avoid spreading feeble attempts to push up a fad's popularity as if it were revolutionary.

On the subject of how the DNS works, I need no patronizing. I've used the Internet for the past 12 years and I'm a programmer, systems analyst and web developer.

There is a reason why the Tower of Babel was not completed. Use this as your paradigm and perhaps you'll understand why you're betting on the wrong horse.

I split my post into short sentences so that you can maintain focus.

So there we have it! God does not want IDN. That is your most cogent argument to date.

I hope that Bible does as much for American cultural dominance as it did for the Greeks.

History shows that that military and cultural dominance of nations or empires is a transient affair and that the duration of such advantages is becoming progressively shorter with the greater and more rapid dissemination of education and information.

Technology may be at the moment, as you say, western-centric . However, the reality it is that successful technology is market focused. Without cash to sustain it from customers that have a use for it, then all technology becomes redundant.

The internet is rapidly become a mass marketing tool and it will continue to be ever more consumer focused. It will rapidly become apparent to all but a few stubborn souls that marketing to the emerging economic giants of Asia can only be achieved assimulating the cultures and languages.

I would not go as far as to say that anything to do with domain names is high-tech, as at the end of the day they are only look-up tables comprised of aliases. The fact that some of these aliases are now encoded representations, is neither a startling technological leap forward or cause for alarm.

As far as IDNs are concerned the biggest challenges are organisational and political. The actual encodement is a relatively simple matter. The problems with this "fad" that have been gradually resolved over the last 7 years or so have been largely to resolving political differences of languages and writing system, where there is often significant overlap due to the way languages and their associated writing systems have evolved over the last 5,000 years. These problems are now been substancially dealt with and we can now look forward to a phase of adoption and implementation, as the powerful marketing tools they will undoubtedly prove to be.

As for dillusion, that is primarily an American preserve, which is a product of US TV and Hollywood, which represent the nation as communities of modern day Greek Gods, when in fact the reality is that the US is a nation of over-weight aging baby boomers. If the US is to maintain it preminent economic and cultural advantages, it going have to produce and successfully market a lot more than fat people.

Regards
Dave Wrixon

 

[Bramiozo]

I agree with the following

• non-roman IDN's with roman-extensions will not be permanent
• the development of non-roman IDN's will probably end with non-roman extensions, it will be IDN nonetheless
• usage of IDN for spoofing,phishing and oxymorons will pose an inevitable problem, IDN's won't directly fire up with a general browser support and it may never fire up unless these problems are dealt with.

Having said that
roman IDN's with roman-extensions can be permanent if support and goodwill is provided and spanish, portugues, italian, french, etc. IDN-markets can in time become representative for there linguistic sizes, maybe it will become accepted as a standard means of domaining and the current wrongly spelled foreign dn's will be discarded as secondary.

It stands or falls with the approval of the masses, I say, let it be judged (if all technical issues are resolved off course).

I think IDN's are more then DN-clutter but I realize the whole chance-element, I also realize that the opinions in the dn-community are important for the success of IDN's, why not give it a chance, we reap what we sow you know.

 

[Domagon]

Internationalizing the top level will actually HELP ... in that it will allow IDNs to be more easily filtered out.

Folks buying IDNs should be wary, for if ICANN ever requires current IDNs, in say .COM, to be placed into a IDN top-level only that's going to substantially drop whatever value IDNs have ... to be clear, not sure ICANN can/could ever do that ... point is, from my cursory understanding, that internationalized top-level may be more a good thing for us folks concerned about fraud/spoofing/confusion from IDNs - filtering out IDNs is already easy, but internationizing the the top-level will likely make it even easier yet.

Lastly, IDNs themselves are a good idea, but implementation is what bothers me ... spoofing and resolution issues so far have been glanced over and not seriously addressed - people need to be easily able to determine what a domain is *and* that it will always resolve to the same place ... IDNs turns the DNS into a best guess system - that's totally contrary to the design of DNS and things WILL break and fail - these issues need to be addressed and corrected now ... if not, IDNs are relegated forever to an internet backwater that many will avoid.

Ron

 

[Rubber Duck]

Internationalizing the top level will actually HELP ... in that it will allow IDNs to be more easily filtered out.

Folks buying IDNs should be wary, for if ICANN ever requires current IDNs, in say .COM, to be placed into a IDN top-level only that's going to substantially drop whatever value IDNs have ... to be clear, not sure ICANN can/could ever do that ... point is, from my cursory understanding, that internationalized top-level may be more a good thing for us folks concerned about fraud/spoofing/confusion from IDNs - filtering out IDNs is already easy, but internationizing the the top-level will likely make it even easier yet.

Lastly, IDNs themselves are a good idea, but implementation is what bothers me ... spoofing and resolution issues so far have been glanced over and not seriously addressed - people need to be easily able to determine what a domain is *and* that it will always resolve to the same place ... IDNs turns the DNS into a best guess system - that's totally contrary to the design of DNS and things WILL break and fail - these issues need to be addressed and corrected now ... if not, IDNs are relegated forever to an internet backwater that many will avoid.

Ron

Producing IDNs that can be filtered is not an issue, as they enter the DNS as ASCII strings with "xn--" at the front end.

Differentiation and filtering will be the preserve of the browsers in the next generation. The default setting will be to put a pop up warning up when an IDN URL is encountered. The window will simply give users and option to switch the warning system off or permanently block IDN. Everyone will start with IDN enablement, but will subsequently safely be given the level of protection they require.

The ASCII IDN strings as far as I am aware resolve as reliably as any other domain at the registry to which they belong. The encoding is, however, to my knowledge done locally, as will any transcription of the first level from local characters into the specific TLD. Obviously, if transcription and coding were done centrally, it would be much easier to regulate, but it would appear that this would be more technically difficult to implement. It would seem that Browser producer's such as IE and Mozilla or possibly the OS producers will be reponsible for updating and maintaining the necessary look-up tables. Obvioulsy, ultimately these products will be judged on their performance. The commercial impertiative, hopefully will ensure that accurate encoding and transciption is achieved.

Regards
Dave Wrixon

Hahaha, .... And btw, anyone can register .in domains. More propaganda from the IDN peanut gallery .....

Having difficulty getting advice from Registry, but the following URl

http://www.indianregistry.net/coin/whocan.htm

Suggest that to register .in you need to be:

1) DoT licenced Internet Service Provider

2) Trademark Holder or provide register search documents

It then goes on to state the if documentation is nor received within 1 month from date of application then name will be deactivated.


You obviously have more up to date advice, which we would all of course welcome.

Regards
Dave Wrixon

 

[DaddyHalbucks]

So, let me make sure I get this straight:

1. IDNs are custom made for "phishing" and other scams.
2. IDNs almost guarantee a security nightmare.
3. IDNs generate hard to monetize foreign traffic.
4. Domainers who don't embrace IDNs feel threatened by them.

OK, I confess: I do feel threatened. I am worried these new IDNs will devalue my blue chip .COMs.

Do you think intensive psycho-therapy would solve my problem?

 

[pkguy]

I guess the more people hating IDN the better. It gives me a better chance to get the best keywords with traffic before everybody else...

I currently hold chinese IDN, russian IDN. Cyrillic alphabet 1 char IDN in .net, and I believe that this is one of the best markets to invest in.

 

[Rubber Duck]

So, let me make sure I get this straight:

1. IDNs are custom made for "phishing" and other scams.
2. IDNs almost guarantee a security nightmare.
3. IDNs generate hard to monetize foreign traffic.
4. Domainers who don't embrace IDNs feel threatened by them.

OK, I confess: I do feel threatened. I am worried these new IDNs will devalue my blue chip .COMs.

Do you think intensive psycho-therapy would solve my problem?

Daddy,

Thiink I detect a hint or irony here :laugh:

Can't imagine you feeling threatened or accepting psycho-therapy!

I don't believe that IDN, will ever approach the value of a real blue chip dot com, but 10% or more of the equivalent dot com value is probably not unrealistic, as I believe that only around 10% of the domains that the world will eventually require have been currently registered.

It is exceptionally difficult to register a good dot com these days and in the secondary market "blue chips" start at about $50,000. Of course IANA have guaranteed that single character domains will remain largely only a theoretical possibitlity for conventional TLDS.

When you compare the price of investing in a "blue chip" with about $7 for a new registration dot IDN, you can start knocking together some interesting figures. All conjecture of course, but isn't that where the story started!!!

I believe that there are few markets with a critical mass where IDN will eventually become dominant over romanic.com, i.e. China, Russia and the Arab World. The situation in Japan and India is going to be much more interesting and no doubt types both will have great significance.

The greatest competition in the short-term could be ccTLDs, if the rest of the world follows the German Model. Not much evidence of that happening in most places though!

Don't think IDN are going to be cause for you to loose much sleep, unless missed opportunities keep you awake at night!

Regards
Dave Wrixon

 

[Theo]

Producing IDNs that can be filtered is not an issue, as they enter the DNS as ASCII strings with "xn--" at the front end.

Differentiation and filtering will be the preserve of the browsers in the next generation. The default setting will be to put a pop up warning up when an IDN URL is encountered. The window will simply give users and option to switch the warning system off or permanently block IDN. Everyone will start with IDN enablement, but will subsequently safely be given the level of protection they require.

The ASCII IDN strings as far as I am aware resolve as reliably as any other domain at the registry to which they belong. The encoding is, however, to my knowledge done locally, as will any transcription of the first level from local characters into the specific TLD. Obviously, if transcription and coding were done centrally, it would be much easier to regulate, but it would appear that this would be more technically difficult to implement. It would seem that Browser producer's such as IE and Mozilla or possibly the OS producers will be reponsible for updating and maintaining the necessary look-up tables. Obvioulsy, ultimately these products will be judged on their performance. The commercial impertiative, hopefully will ensure that accurate encoding and transciption is achieved.

Regards
Dave Wrixon



Having difficulty getting advice from Registry, but the following URl

http://www.indianregistry.net/coin/whocan.htm

Suggest that to register .in you need to be:

1) DoT licenced Internet Service Provider

2) Trademark Holder or provide register search documents

It then goes on to state the if documentation is nor received within 1 month from date of application then name will be deactivated.


You obviously have more up to date advice, which we would all of course welcome.

Regards
Dave Wrixon

Dave,

As I said, you are a dreamer and not a realist. You found some old page and slapped it here. Had you bothered to check further - instead of attempting to utilize my fondness for new, pronounceable TLDs like .in as a means of elevation for hieroglyphics (IDNs) - then you would have seen that:

1. The page you quoted was last updated on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 at 7:35:34 AM - give or take a few picoseconds.

2. The .in registry opened this February, obviously while you were busy counting beans in Russian or Chinese: http://www.registry.in

Obviously, you were looking for India but found the New Indies, as a modern cyber-Colombus.

Please keep typing on that java keyboard console - meanwhile the world buys, sells and registers domains that make sense: in Latin characters.

 

[ForumDomains]

RADiSTAR,

IDNs are not only the hieroglyphics-based alphabets. Let me assure you that communism in China has nothing in common with all that IDN stuff. Calm down and ease your mind. Don't be a victim of antediluvian anticommunist propaganda.
They are priority of such well known institutions like Multilingual International Names Consortium (MINC), Internationalized Domain Name Working Group (IDN WG) of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) and International Telecommunication Union (ITU). IDNs will reveal its full potential when ENUM services are largely accepted as a communication medium.

 

[Rubber Duck]

Dave,

As I said, you are a dreamer and not a realist. You found some old page and slapped it here. Had you bothered to check further - instead of attempting to utilize my fondness for new, pronounceable TLDs like .in as a means of elevation for hieroglyphics (IDNs) - then you would have seen that:

1. The page you quoted was last updated on Wednesday, October 10, 2001 at 7:35:34 AM - give or take a few picoseconds.

2. The .in registry opened this February, obviously while you were busy counting beans in Russian or Chinese: http://www.registry.in

Obviously, you were looking for India but found the New Indies, as a modern cyber-Colombus.

Please keep typing on that java keyboard console - meanwhile the world buys, sells and registers domains that make sense: in Latin characters.

Thanks, for that. Actually, I searched long and hard on Google for a reference. Just goes to show that search engines are still a bit of lottery.

Regards
Dave Wrixon

 

[Theo]

Dave, despite our different opinions & colorful exchanges (at least on my part), I respect you for sticking to your guns. Best of luck with your choice of domain venues.

 

[Rubber Duck]

Dave, despite our different opinions & colorful exchanges (at least on my part), I respect you for sticking to your guns. Best of luck with your choice of domain venues.

It take two to tango and I think it is time to call a truce. Predicting the future is a difficult business, but I am seriously convinced of the benefits of IDNs, although I admit there are still a few huddles to pass before they enter a perioid of full commercial exploitation.

I believe that for the a domain speculator with vision, IDN represent a real opportunity that many of us missed by being far too slow during the original dot com launch. Hell, I come from outside the industry. I didn't have a clue what was going down!

For new registrations the chances of scoring a major hit in traditional dot coms now has to be seen as fairly remote. There is still the possibilty of grabbing some serious real estate in IDN. There are risks, but at 7 bucks a shot, it got to be worth having a look at. Like any other market, the early bird catches the worm, and even here I probably benefitted from a rocky start to pick several hundred drops that someone is likely to deeply regret.

Anyway, what ever your flavour of domain. Good luck and good hunting!

Regards
Dave Wrixon

 

[ctc]

my 2 cents.
Why are you guys arguing about this. Domains whatever they are, mean nothing unless someone needs/wants/types them.
e.g I sold an IDN 3 weeks ago for $2500 to a guy in switzerland and the IDN was Greek. He wanted it I sold it.

 

[Rubber Duck]

in my opinion idns are a just a gimmick and waste of money. they will never be fully accepted and no major business would ever rely on an idn for it's online identity ... how would an idn ever be marketed? go get yourself a new keyboard, or hold the control/function 3 keys and type XXX to visit our website.

Well, it too early to be clear of the ultimate fate of IDN and of course one swallow doen't make a summer, but I have recently sold 3 Chinese IDN for a total consideration of $4,000. It is therefore clear that some people other than myself consider them to have a bright future.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

 

[mark]

Well, it too early to be clear of the ultimate fate of IDN and of course one swallow doen't make a summer, but I have recently sold 3 Chinese IDN for a total consideration of $4,000. It is therefore clear that some people other than myself consider them to have a bright future.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

----------------------------------

congrats dave!

 

[DaddyHalbucks]

Well, it too early to be clear of the ultimate fate of IDN and of course one swallow doen't make a summer, but I have recently sold 3 Chinese IDN for a total consideration of $4,000. It is therefore clear that some people other than myself consider them to have a bright future.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

How many IDNs do you own? What are the registration costs?

 

[Rubber Duck]

How many IDNs do you own? What are the registration costs?

Daddy,

We have a portfolio of about 2,000 IDN of which about half are Chinese, but we also have substantial amounts of Japanese including single character Hirigana (Those are the swiggley one's). We only register dot coms and dot nets and these generally are the same cost as other dot coms and dot nets, therefore generally around $7 each. Our sales are therefore yielding about 10,000%. Obviously, the more time we renew the greater the costs, but we expect selling prices to rise ever faster if and when the whole thing gets going properly.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon