NAR steal word Realtor?

[DaddyHalbucks]

John Berryhill,

Poor Gary Anderson, a trademark and naming visionary!

I am sure you agree that is is a great tragedy that the world has not embraced his brilliant internet navigation solution at:

http://www.wipo.org.uk

 

[DaddyHalbucks]

gary anderson wrote:

Given for over 300 years prior "vendor" was used for one whom sells - "realtor" seems the obvious progression for sellers of realty.
++++++++++++++++++

Pershaps you could also argue that someone who pushes an absurd argument could be called an absurdor. Or would that be adsurder? Or absurdtor?

"I am honored to present to you Mr. Garry Anderson, Absurdtor."

"Realtor" only seems like a natural for real estate because the NAR has invested billions of dollars building its brand for the better part of a century. In other words, the mark has become famous.

And, given its vigilence and recent win, NAR seems to have a strong case, and REALTOR (R) seems to have a bright future.

 

[DaddyHalbucks]

from the dictionary:

Main Entry: Ab·surd·tor
Pronunciation: &b-'s&rd,-t&r, -"tor
Function: noun
-- a person who propounds an absurd theory in private or in public, often to the ridicule of his peers. a generic term, not a trademark nor collective nor association name.

Example: the gentleman who developed the .REG domain scheme

 

[jberryhill]

"I am honored to present to you Mr. Garry Anderson, Absurdtor."

http://www.johnberryhill.com/absurdtor.wav

 

[Garry Anderson]

You will all note that no amount of baiting on my part can get a lawyer to tell the truth about facts.

FIRSTLY - to my OPINION:

That there is progression of the word "realty" into countries all over the world is plain to see.

That the NAR left others in US having to use "Realtists" as progression of the word "realty" is plain to see.

Nicpal - as to your "realter" - perhaps you are right - but I think that "realtor" is twice as likely (for reason shown).

My opinion meter says realtor 50%, realter 25% and the others (realtier, realtist etc) 25%.

However, I am sure trademark lawyers will tell you that "realter" would not be allowed (as it is confusingly similar to "realtor"). Which is why others had to use "Realtists".

I believe that "realtor" was more likely used by some of them before the NAR picked it up for themselves (similar to what Microsoft did with "Windows").

Like I said, it seems the whole world recognises the generic word as the obvious progression of "realty" - except for NAR and its lackeys.

Another thing to note - nobody has named any other word (in any country) that is trademarked and used generically in other countries for the same function.

This was OPINION - so people disagree with opinion - people do that - duh.

Daddy H - Reductio Ad Absurdum - "Sticks and stones..." ;-)

By the way, Daddy H - .reg is nothing earth shattering. It is hardly difficult - yet you have trouble understanding how .reg could act in place of the registered trademark symbol.

If you want to be the same as other fools - ignoring the source of problem - then carry on chum.

FINALLY - to the FACTS:

You all will have observed that they are demonstrable true and that not one lawyer has disproved them.

Nothing can drag the truth out of them - even having resort to, "You know - when you so intelligently argued that consumers should not know when they are on the website of a registered trademark. You said that it did not matter if all words are confusingly similar to these trademarks."

FACT: Prima Facie and upon fullest research - many words and initials taken in UDRP can legally be used by other businesses. This also applies to many taken outside of UDRP.

FACT: It is aiding and abetting trademark overreach to prevent others legally using these words and initials.

You will all see that these lawyers are too afraid to confirm (or try disprove) these FACTS.

Dan - here endith the lesson on difference between facts, advice and opinion.

 

[DaddyHalbucks]

garry anderson:

My opinion meter says realtor 50%, realter 25% and the others (realtier, realtist etc) 25%.
+++++++++++++++

My opinion meter says REALTOR is higher than that --now that the NAR has spent the better part of a century building its brand and creating a famous trademark.

Although, "realtist" has a mellifluous beauty. It is just so lovely. Perhaps it can be used by the NAR when they have an artistic house for sale.

And "realtier" might be good for their 2 tier affiliate program.

Garry, you are brilliant!

How about "realpier?" REALPIER has obvious marine applications. I used to be a Realtor, and I still have connections there. I was recently informed that the NAR is branching out and will now be doing marine deals (underwater land). It is a very new and exciting and fast growing specialty within real estate. It is mostly for vacation and investment. Families can come with ther scuba gear and visit their property in the summer. They say this land will appreciate faster that .BIZ domains. New technology will enable underwater pods where families can live --someday. They are working on the technology now for the pods which require a gigantic dehumidifier, on a scale never before attempted.

I give you all the credit for "Realpier." Garry, you are the real genius behind this concept, I am just helping to fill in a few of the small blanks, such as dehumidifying the world's oceans.

 

[Garry Anderson]

Daddy H - you take my argument to extreme - indeed to the absurd.

That is a method used by devious government spin doctors, as a way to rubish the reasonable arguments of critics.

e.g. "You did not want us to invade Iraq - so you must have wanted Saddam to stay in power and torture civillians".

Intelligent people can see past all that nowadays ;-)

 

[DaddyHalbucks]

Garry Anderson wrote:

Daddy H - you take my argument to extreme - indeed to the absurd.

That is a method used by devious government spin doctors, as a way to rubish the reasonable arguments of critics.

e.g. "You did not want us to invade Iraq - so you must have wanted Saddam to stay in power and torture civillians".

Intelligent people can see past all that nowadays ;-)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You could argue that. You could also say that it is a time-honored form of logical argument.

reductio ad absurdum

reducing (a proposition) to the absurd; demonstrating by analogy that a proposition is ridiculous

 

[DaddyHalbucks]

Reductio ad absurdum is a mode of argumentation that seeks to establish a contention by deriving an absurdity from its denial, thus arguing that a thesis must be accepted because its rejection would be untenable. It is a style of reasoning that has been employed throughout the history of mathematics and philosophy from classical antiquity onwards.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/r/reductio.htm

 

[draqon]

And what is the definition of a Straw Man's Argument?

 

[lopramine45]

so it begins...

 

[DaddyHalbucks]

Has everyone now agreed that the NAR did not steal their famous trademark REALTOR(R)?

Are there any holdouts besides the honorable Garry Anderson, Absurdtor?

 

[jberryhill]

"And what is the definition of a Straw Man's Argument?"

Reductio ad absurdam is demonstrating an absurd result from the application of your opponent's logic to a particular conclusion or set of facts.

A "straw man argument" is a "counter-argument" against an argument which was not made in the first instance - i.e. instead of attacking the opponent's actual argument, you set up a "straw man" and attack that instead.

There is often some overlap between the two, since the person on the receiving end of reductio ad absurdam will complain that the application misses a key point or nuance of the argument. This will generally happen in circumstances where a false dichotomy has been proposed.

 

[Garry Anderson]

I used Reductio Ad Absurdum for the Latin (reduce to the absurd) and you go have a go at the logic - help!

Sorry Daddy H - critical thinking is a dangerous weapon in your hands ;-)

Needless to say, you have totally messed up.

John is right - your application misses the key point of the argument.

i.e. How does your absurd underwater land "realpier" alter the premise that NAR prevent other US real estate agents from using a word that other counties recognise as a generic word and obvious progression from "realty"?

 

[jberryhill]

"How does your absurd underwater land "realpier" alter the premise that NAR prevent other US real estate agents from using a word that other counties recognise as a generic word and obvious progression from "realty"?"

First of all, they have the trademark registered in 40 countries. I'm going to guess you meant "other than US" instead of "other US", since you seem to agree that US agents who are not licensees can legitimately be prevented from using the term "Realtor" in the US.

Secondly, what makes you think it *does* prevent people outside of those 40 countries from using it? Not even this UDRP panelist agrees with your straw-man conclusion:

http://www.arb-forum.com/domains/decisions/137218.htm - realtors.biz
Complaint denied

Garry, you started this thread with the decision of the US Trademark Trial and Appeal Board in a case involving an American with 1900 "realtor" domains. Did anyone in that case say anything having to do with what someone outside of the US could or could not do?

http://www.johnberryhill.com/illusions.wav

 

[Garry Anderson]

Sorry John - I am afraid we are not going to agree on this - now what a surprise ;-)

Thank you for the link - realtors.biz (Complaint denied) - extract:

"...but it is also used as an ordinary noun to indicate a real estate agent in other English-speaking countries, such as the UK and Australia. There are dictionaries which describe <realtor> with only the meaning of this kind of ordinary noun."

I see this as a simple progression of the English language. Perhaps it can be best explained this way:

"Vendor" is obvious simple progression of vend.

As "Realtor" is obvious simple progression of realty - and therefore should not have been allowed as registered trademark for this purpose.

Whereas, Realpier is a creation, combining realty and pier (I presume?).

Daddy H - have another go if you like - I am used to being ridiculed and slighted - I was about vCJD - I was about the under reporting of errors in UK surgery.

Although proven correct in those two cases - it does not mean you will not prove me wrong about avoiding confusion with ordinary domain names (by adding something to replace registered trademark symbol - like .reg). Although I very much doubt it ;-)

 

[options]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/11/23/REG3738BSN1.DTL

 

[nicpal]

"The words real estate agent and Realtor are not interchangeable, at least not yet.

Real estate agent is a general term used to identify professionals licensed to engage in the buying, selling and leasing of all types of structures and the land underneath.

A Realtor, who also engages in real estate transactions, is a member of the National Association of Realtors. So, all Realtors are real estate agents, but not all real estate agents are Realtors. "

This is so ridiculous because eventhough your are licensed by the state as a "real estate agent" you cannot go to work for a broker in that state unless you are a "realtor" as all broker's are members of the Local Association Realtor's, governed by NAR. So basically as real estate agent's are realtor's, at least all those who want their commission checks!

Case and point, my wife let her realtor fees lapse last year, and they held her commission check until she renewed, shut her out of the MLS system, and made her Supra Key inoperable, eventhough the separate fees, paid to separate entities, on all of the above were current. Pretty good stranglehold, huh?

 

[DaddyHalbucks]

garry anderson dug deeper:

As "Realtor" is obvious simple progression of realty - and therefore should not have been allowed as registered trademark for this purpose.

NO. IT IS NOT A LOGICAL PROGRESSION, ANY MORE THAN ABSURDTOR IS A LOGICAL PROGESSSION FOR PEOPLE WHO SPOUT SILLINESS.

CYBERSQUATTERS AND OTHERS ARE NOW GRABBING FOR "REALTOR" BECAUSE IT HAS BECOME FAMOUS AFTER 50 YEARS OF INVESTMENT.

'REALTOR' HAS ACQUIRED SECONDARY MEANING. THE RECOGNITION BY THE DICTIONARY MERELY CONFIRMS THE FAME AND SECONDARY MEANING. THE US TRADEMARK DATABASE IS NOT LEGALLY LIMITED BY THE CONTENTS OF A DICTIONARY.

Although proven correct in those two cases - it does not mean you will not prove me wrong about avoiding confusion with ordinary domain names (by adding something to replace registered trademark symbol - like .reg). Although I very much doubt it ;-)

PERSONALLY, I WOULD BE CONFUSED IF I WENT TO APPLE.COM AND DID *NOT* FIND APPLE COMPUTERS. IT IS THE MOST FAMOUS OF THE APPLE BRANDS.

IS [.REG] TECHNICALLY FEASIBLE? PERHAPS. WOULD [.REG] EASE CONFUSION? PERHAPS. BUT THAT IS TO MISS THE POINT. [.REG] IS SO CUMBERSOME FOR USERS AND CORPORATE MARKETING ALIKE THAT IT IS A JOKE. THE ONLY PERSON WHO COULD LOVE [.REG] IS ITS MOTHER!

NOBODY WANTS IT!

IT IS THE DOMAIN EQUIVALENT TO THE 99% OF THE WORLD'S PATENTS WHICH GATHER DUST AND COLLECT RENEWAL FEES --UNLICENSABLE AND WORTHLESS.

 

[jberryhill]

"http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...REG3738BSN1.DTL"

Ummm... Options, that article is from November 2003. The link I provided earlier is to the decision that was rendered two weeks ago. The case is over. The NAR won. That is what motivated the Absurdtor to start this thread.

"NO. IT IS NOT A LOGICAL PROGRESSION, ANY MORE THAN ABSURDTOR IS A LOGICAL PROGESSSION FOR PEOPLE WHO SPOUT SILLINESS."

http://www.johnberryhill.com/appearances.wav