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Shilling ?

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britishbulldog

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Ive noticed under domains for sale,people try and shill up the offers by blagging they have been pm"d a higher offer,it happens all the time,i just note it down who they are and wont deal them,it should be all offers via posting only and if they are not happy with the offer they dont have to sell but to keep bumping the post and try and entice a potential buyer for a few extra quid by shilling up is bang out of order !

:-(
 
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jdk

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I've noticed this too. And then when no one else bids they claim the other person backed out and ask if you are interested for the same price.
 

SouthernTn

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i think if it is a "private party" this "private" party should atleast comfirm that they are actually bidding with a mod/admin. Its only fair.
 

Domain Jedi

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When selling, I save all of my PM's.

That way if I am ever questioned, I have the PM trail.

I read some where that shill bidding is a crime in most states, and can be prosecuted under Federal wire fraud laws.
 

Blarian

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I know some buyers who don't like to advertise to everyone what they just purchased and will only deal privately. These higher profile companies/people usually don't want to advertise to the world what websites they are buying, so they may send the offer privately to avoid a media frenzy or what have you. Even though it only occurs rarely, I've seen this happen with legitimate sellers.
 

Sarcle

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Do you guys understand the difference between shilling and phantom bids?

In an auction such as ebay your locked into a price. Shilling takes place when your max bid is $300.00 for something and the high bid is $10.00. the owner then proceeds to bump the auction up falsely to 100.00, 200.00, 250.00, 299.00. You have now lost out on getting this domain at $10.00 and now legally required to pay 299.00. Due to owner fraud.

You lost out on 289.00 that you have to legally pay due to fraud.

This can be proven!
----------------------------------------------
Phantom Bid:

If I offer $10.00 for a persons' domain and they come back and say the High offer is $299.00. I am out nothing. I don't have to pay and I am not required to do anything. The contract is void.

This cannot be proven!
---------------------------------------------

Enough whining already.
 

barefoot

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Exactly. If I offer $500 for a domain via PM, and the owner then tells me that she has a higher offer for the domain, I am free to say "thanks for letting me know -- have a good sale". In no way am I obligated to offer more money due to the sense of urgency the seller is trying to instill, fact-based or not.

If I've concluded that a domain is worth $500 to me, and I've already offered that amount for it, I couldn't care less whether someone has offered more for the domain. I'm not out any money because my offer has been rendered void due to the higher offer the seller has allegedly received.
 

Biggie

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britishbulldog said:
Ive noticed under domains for sale,people try and shill up the offers by blagging they have been pm"d a higher offer,it happens all the time,i just note it down who they are and wont deal them,it should be all offers via posting only and if they are not happy with the offer they dont have to sell but to keep bumping the post and try and entice a potential buyer for a few extra quid by shilling up is bang out of order !

:-(

so are you complaining because they are bumping the thread...or because you want verification, that they got a higher offer?

should that offer be verified, then would the "bump" be acceptable?

who will verify?

why should i/you/ or anyone else have to verify that?
 

Focus

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I think it all comes down to common sense...it's easy to tell alot of times when someone is full of it...I can sniff out that game a mile away...I also usually ask them (the seller) in that situation to have the high bidder post the offer in the thread if everyone else is doing so...or, I just don't bid anymore! :eek:k:
 

Axioma

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SouthernTn said:
i think if it is a "private party" this "private" party should atleast comfirm that they are actually bidding with a mod/admin. Its only fair.

Recently I put a domain up for sale. 90% of offers were via PM, so no one mentioned they had made an offer, thanks to the innovation of not allowing 'PM Sent' posts (Note: things evolve naturally for a reason. 'Great' ideas like communism fail miserably because they mess with naturally evolved paradigms, but that's theme for another thread, I guess). I'm also convinced the domain was sold for a lower price because there was no way other people noticed the interest of peers, and the post sunk with every day that passed by. I also hated to post those '$XXX offer received via PM', but got no other choice. Of course I kept the PMs too, and the final buyer did post his offer.

Maybe allowing 'Offer PM'ed' but not allowing 'PM sent' posts will do? %+|
 

nitronet

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Just stop buying names in these forums.

Most of the names that are put up for sale for the last year or so have been crap anyways.

I think the forums are best for industry gossip and not real business.
 

britishbulldog

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so are you complaining because they are bumping the thread...or because you want verification, that they got a higher offer?

should that offer be verified, then would the "bump" be acceptable?

who will verify?

why should i/you/ or anyone else have to verify that?
__________________

Verification would do nice ! gives the mods something to do instead of banning people or issuing warnings against anything the mods dont like against their old pals, its like the old boys brigade !
 

Togoodhlth

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Well, unfortunately a LOT of people make offers via PM and if the seller is not interested in selling below a certain price they can set a minimum offer anyways.
The last site I sold here which was last week I had a high offer of $800 in the thread and received a higher offer via PM. I listed the higher offer and no one went higher so the PM buyer got it. If the site was worth more than $1500 to them they had the opportunity to pay more since I posted the higher offer.
On the other hand I could have not posted it and simply posted "sold" in the thread however someone else may have been interested in paying more in which case I am doing myself and the those who had made offers a disservice.

Also it is no ones business who buys the name. I would not share a buyers name UNLESS they asked me to.
 

WhoDatDog

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See my thread from just a few days ago where I took on all comers on this subject. It is in the Legal Issues section and the title is: This has to be Fraud.

I was attacked left and right. One person removed his posts and another claimed my original question did not concern auctions. In auctions it is against Federal Law....it is dishonest at best in other situations, and maybe fraudulent as well if the misrepresentation was material and relied upon in the transaction. Tough to prove, but that wasn't my point when I began the thread.

http://www.dnforum.com/f26/has-fraud-thread-127583.html
 

Biggie

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britishbulldog said:
Verification would do nice ! gives the mods something to do instead of banning people or issuing warnings against anything the mods dont like against their old pals, its like the old boys brigade !

so now you're complaining about the moderator staff?

and inferring bias by mod's?

what else?
 

StockDoctor

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I think a lot of us see thru the baloney self promotion via quotes of high bids received via pm when the names really suck, but just don't get sucked in by the hype. Sure seems like some of the newer members here (last year or so) are really experts in the happy/hype pump and dump routine. Just bid if you think the name worth the money, that's all.

That said, I often put up a sales thread and the thing gets very few posts with offers. I then get a bunch via pm. The reason is the anti/bump plan. When the bidders see a good name they want, they don't want the competition or views by others. They'd just as soon have the thread fall down a few pages. It's funny.

Edited to ad: GT Web, I'm trademarking "Happy/Hype Pump and Dump" as the first in use, just as I coined ".Commie" years ago. You may use the phase, but only with credit to the author. j/k
 

WhoDatDog

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Here is a good article about Phantom and Shill bidding....very informative as far as AUCTIONS go; however, it looks as though it might be against the law to have a Phantom bid in an Offer's Thread, if the winning bidder relied on that misrepresentation and hit the Reserve Price when he/she otherwise would NOT have (I am treating this as an intellectual exercise as well and am not recommending the policing of Offer's threads here.... and the Auction Threads are pretty quiet anyways).

Auction Law and Ethics

Phantom Bidding
by Steve Proffitt
Here's a letter from a reader that Sam Pennington forwarded to me for reply:

While looking for auctioneering information, I came across the articles on your website. I spent over two hours reading through your archives, which are all great. From the perspective of a person thinking about a career in auctioneering, your site is the best I've found as far as information goes. The reason I'm writing is in regard to phantom bidding. Currently I'm a self-employed used-car dealer. I always thought phantom bidding was just part of the program. I've been to auctions (all across the country) and have watched ring men, as well as auctioneers, bounce bids off the wall like crazy.

My question is: Is phantom bidding against the law? Don't get me wrong. I can see phantom bidding as being unethical in many cases, but what do you think about it if the seller sets the reserve at five grand and the only money the auctioneer can find at four grand is one lonely bidder? Would you still say it is unethical if the auctioneer bumps that guy up to five grand and rings the bell? I mean, the bidder was obviously willing to pay the five grand and the seller would refuse a sale for less money, so wouldn't the auctioneer be in the right in this situation?

If I were to become an auctioneer, I'm wondering if auctioneering practices differ from industry to industry. It seems to me phantom bids and shill bids are the norm in the car biz. However, at estate auctions I've yet to catch a phantom bid. I feel like I'd always be a dollar short if I were auctioneering at a car auction and not bouncing bids off a wall. I'm somewhat confused, especially over the legalities of this phantom bidding. Please shed some light on my questions, but do not publish my name.

Thank you for the nice compliment on the M.A.D. Web site and the archive of my columns. You're right—M.A.D. does have a top-drawer site, and I'm delighted you found it interesting and informative. I found your letter to Mr. Pennington interesting but not informative. That's because I've heard this old tune way too many times and never have liked it.

Phantom Bids
It's clear that the letter writer knows what a phantom bid is. Nevertheless, I'll briefly identify that snake for readers who are unfamiliar with it. Phantom bidding occurs when an auctioneer calls a bid that no bidder has made. It's a ruse used to trick bidders into believing there is bidding competition for a lot where none exists. Auctioneers use phantom bids to fool bidders into paying more for goods than genuine competitive bidding would require.

Sellers bidding on their own consignments, and auctioneers placing those bids for them, are not phantom bids, as long as it is clearly disclosed beforehand. That practice is addressed in the Uniform Commercial Code, <185>2-328: "If the auctioneer knowingly receives a bid on the seller's behalf or the seller makes or procures such a bid, and notice has not been given that liberty for such bidding is reserved, the buyer may at his option avoid the sale or take the goods at the price of the last good faith bid prior to the completion of the sale."

The Administrative Code of the City of New York also has provisions for auctioneers placing bids on behalf of consignors, as long as it is properly disclosed: "Before bidding on any lot has reached its reserve price no auctioneer may make or place consecutive or successive bids, or place bids in response to bids from others, on behalf of the consignor, unless the fact that the auctioneer will or may bid in such a manner is clearly and conspicuously disclosed in any catalogue and any other printed material published or distributed in connection with the sale. For the purposes of this regulation advertisements in newspapers or other periodicals shall not constitute printed material. This disclosure must also be made on signs prominently displayed in the auction room and at the entrance thereto, and must be announced by the auctioneer immediately prior to the commencement of any auction.

"The sign required by this regulation must be at least 12 inches by 18 inches in dimension with letters at least one inch high, and must read as follows, or convey a substantially similar disclosure: `The auctioneer may open bidding on any lot by placing a bid on behalf of the seller. The auctioneer may further bid on behalf of the seller, up to the amount of the reserve, by placing successive or consecutive bids for a lot, or by placing bids in response to other bidders.'

"After bidding has reached the reserve price of a lot: a. the auctioneer may not bid on behalf of the consignor or the auction house; and b. the auctioneer may only accept bids from persons other than the consignor or the auction house except absentee telephone, order or other agent's bids."

An auctioneer calling phantom bids is like a fisherman. The bid is the lure, the bidder is the fish, and the hook is set when a "live money" bid is received from a legitimate bidder. Even after a bidder is hooked, the auctioneer may continue to call phantom bids to "play" that bidder and further raise the purchase price.

Let's consider an example. An auctioneer opens the bidding on an item by starting it with a phantom bid of $1000. Legitimate bidders then take the bidding up to $2000, but no one will outbid the $2000 bidder. The auctioneer could throw in another phantom bid at $2250 with the hope that it would trick the $2000 bidder into going to $2300 or $2500.

Unlike shill bidding that requires a co-conspirator, phantom bidding is a solo act done by the auctioneer. Skilled bid-callers can roll through phantom bids so easily that most bidders never know a con game is underway. Auction-goers familiar with this dirty practice refer to it as bidding against "the chandelier," "an empty chair," "the ceiling," "a fence post," etc. Auctioneers who use phantom bids refer to it as "running bids," "bouncing bids," "picking pockets," and "carrying the bidder."

Misrepresentation
Phantom bidding is fraud because it's the misrepresentation of a material fact. The bid price is the material fact. The auctioneer calls a bid and thereby tells the audience how much the highest bidder has declared he is willing to pay to own the lot.

Next, the auctioneer calls a false bid in an effort to lure the previous high bidder into bidding even more for the lot. The false bid is the misrepresentation. The auctioneer calls this phony bid to fool the previous high bidder into believing that another bidder has bid more for the lot.

"The Program"
The letter writer said he "always thought phantom bidding was just part of the program." He is right if he is referring to dishonest auctions. Phantom bidding is about as common in those sales as blue is in the sky. That's because it's easy for auctioneers to run this con, and it's hard for bidders to detect. The fast pace and frenetic activity that surround many auctions create nearly perfect camouflage for different types of fraud, especially for phantom bidding.

He mentioned that he has never detected a phantom bid in an estate auction. He has either had the good fortune to attend honest auctions, or he just failed to realize what was taking place. Estate auctions and phantom bids go together like ham and eggs when dishonest auctioneers conduct these sales.

An Example
The writer of the letter gave an example of an auctioneer opening the bidding on a lot with a $5000 reserve. The only bidder bid $4000, and no one would bid more. He asked, "Would you still say it is unethical if the auctioneer bumps that guy up to five grand and rings the bell?" It's not only unethical, it's illegal.

He tried to excuse the auctioneer's conduct by noting that "the bidder was obviously willing to pay the five grand and the seller would refuse a sale for less money, so wouldn't the auctioneer be in the right in this situation?"

In response, here are several questions:

(1) If you went to a store willing to pay $2 for a loaf of bread and found the bread was priced at $1, how much do you think you should have to pay for it?

(2) If you took the bread to the checkout expecting to pay $1, but the store's owner quietly picked an extra dollar out of your pocket, would that be OK since you had been willing to pay $2 for the bread?

You would call anyone who took a dollar out of your pocket a thief, but many auctioneers "bump" bidders with phantom bids for hundreds and even thousands of dollars and just call it "auctioneering."

Industry Practices
The letter writer asked if auctioneering practices vary across different industries. Yes, sometimes they do. What he's really asking is if phantom bidding is permissible in auctions where it's customarily done. It is not.

The law of fraud doesn't change like a chameleon according to its backdrop. The law applies equally to auctions and auctioneers, just as it does to wholesalers, liquidators, and retailers. When I address auctioneers or auctioneering students on the subject of fraud, I emphasize that nowhere in the law is there any exception for auctions, auctioneers, or any particular type of asset. Phantom bids are fraudulent in every auction where they are called.

"That's Auctioneering"
Do you know what really grates on me? It's auctioneers who pretend to be good guys while they play scams to cheat people out of money. These practitioners delude themselves into believing that a microphone and an auction chant equals a license to do whatever they want under the banner of auctioneering.

This month's letter writer asked to remain anonymous. Every article I write and every talk I give, however, has my name on it. You would think that advocating legal compliance and ethical conduct would be an agenda everyone would support. It is not. I have many detractors in auctioneering, because I advocate legal and ethical practices.

Here are several examples of what I mean:

A well-known auctioneer asked me where I would draw the line about the auctioneering tricks I reveal. I won't. Why shouldn't the public know what to watch for and avoid?

I taught a seminar on fraud to a national audience once, and an auctioneer afterward said, "Steve, that was a nice talk, but you just don't understand auctioneering." My reply was that I understand it just fine&#8212;just like I do the law of fraud.

At the conclusion of another seminar an auctioneer said, "I was taught you can't be honest and be an auctioneer too." I replied, "I feel sorry for you and hope you're wrong. If you're not, this is no place for me."

Then there are the occasional letters I receive urging me to refocus my work on the positive aspects of auctioneering. My work is focused. I decry illegal and unethical practices and boost honest auctioneers at every opportunity.

Recently I was about to address over 300 auctioneers. A fellow I have long considered a friend came to me backstage with a message from some unnamed auctioneers. These folks were "troubled" by my outspokenness on wrongdoing, and their critiques of my work weren't positive.

"We don't want our dirty laundry aired in public, Steve," my "friend" told me. I replied that I didn't care what they wanted. They could find a publisher and write columns supporting their illegal tricks, and the public could critique that. As for their dirty laundry, they never have tried to wash it.

Conclusion
Phantom bidding is a scourge in auctions. Never let anyone convince you otherwise. Bidders can protect themselves from this and other illegal practices when they patronize honest auctioneers. If everyone would refuse to do business with the crooks, we could be rid of them and that would be good riddance.

That's it for now, but I'll see you again in the October issue of M.A.D.. Until then, good bidding!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steve Proffitt is a Virginia attorney-at-law, auctioneer, and an instructor at the Reppert School of Auctioneering in Auburn, Indiana, and at the Mendenhall School of Auctioneering in High Point, North Carolina. He welcomes questions from readers about all aspects of auctions and auctioneering. Mr. Proffitt will answer selected questions in this column, but he cannot provide personal answers. The answers given do not represent legal advice or the formation of an attorney-client relationship. Readers should seek the advice of their own attorneys in their respective states on all legal issues. Please submit questions to PO Box 1013, Dept. M, Staunton, VA 24401, or email [email protected].


&#169; 2004 by Maine Antique Digest
 

Togoodhlth

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WhoDatDog said:
See my thread from just a few days ago where I took on all comers on this subject. It is in the Legal Issues section and the title is: This has to be Fraud.

I was attacked left and right. One person removed his posts and another claimed my original question did not concern auctions. In auctions it is against Federal Law....it is dishonest at best in other situations, and maybe fraudulent as well if the misrepresentation was material and relied upon in the transaction. Tough to prove, but that wasn't my point when I began the thread.

http://www.dnforum.com/f26/has-fraud-thread-127583.html

It wasn't this subject.
That thread is about offers not regular sales.
In an auction I agree 100%!

John
 

GT Web

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Stocdoctor said:
Edited to ad: GT Web, I'm trademarking "Happy/Hype Pump and Dump" as the first in use, just as I coined ".Commie" years ago. You may use the phase, but only with credit to the author. j/k

:-O eek, odd to be reading a topic you hadn't seen before and run across your name in it...

Actually, when I saw the thread title I started thinking about Curt Schilling...and the upcomming baseball season (Go Jays Go!)
 
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