To all pro-war advocates

[Shiftlock]

Originally posted by Beachie
President Bush gets whatever it is you think he wants (and what is that exactly? Oil?)

No, I really don't think oil has much to do with it at all, and frankly I'm tired of hearing people say this war is about oil. That was Gulf War I. Gulf War II is about popularity. I think Bush is doing this because he thinks most Americans see it as the right thing to do. I think Bush and his crew feel that after 9/11, they have to continue to present an image of a powerful administration that is being proactive, and doing things to make Americans feel safer. The whole Afghanistan thing was winding down, and he needed a new focus. I mean, Saddam didn't really do anything recently to provoke this. He's pretty much been doing his own thing since the end of the first Gulf War. All of this attention on Iraq kind of came out of the blue. Perhaps Bush genuinely believes that Saddam poses a potential threat to the U.S., and he thinks he's doing the right thing for the right reason. Maybe he honestly thinks he's saving lives. If that's the case, he's not a bad guy in my opinion, he's just misguided.

 

[Shiftlock]

Originally posted by WebHold


Shift

Americans are informed every step of the way by asking questions and getting explantions to the direction we are headed. We have been asking thousands upon thousands of questions every week to the top leaders of our country. I am proud that they take the time to brief us every single day of the ins and the outs of this war. Opinions, after the decision for war has been made by top leadership, serves no benefit to anyone. The treason laws are pretty clear during war time. Anti-war setiment, especially with the people that can sway the masses, will be dealt with accordingly.

You need to remember that if we were all so damn good, we would be the president of this country. I realize it is intriguing to run the country from our recliners, it is now time to come back down to earth and return to our day jobs.

Of course the government breifs us everyday. It's to their benefit to do so. They are trying to bolster support for this war effort. The propaganda machine is running full steam ahead.

Opinions after the decision for war serve no benefit? I think you feel that way because you support the war. Suppose the government was doing something you ademently opposed. Suppose the President decided he was going to attack Canada for no good reason. Suppose the President gave the order to commit genocide. Once the order is given and the decision is made, we should not question it? What kind of logic is that? That's the kind of thinking that made Hitler so powerful.

If we were so good, we would be president of the country? Being "good" has nothing to do with it. It's much more often about who you know and how much money you have. It's impossible that in a 12-year period, two of the BEST possible presidents in the entire country just happen to be father and son. Besides, I can think of a president (Clinton) that made a mistake I would never dream of making. And my wife wouldn't be as understanding, either. Presidents aren't perfect, they make mistakes, and the American people have an obligation to express their opinion when they disagree, wartime or no.

 

[Beachie]

Originally posted by Shiftlock
That's the kind of thinking that made Hitler so powerful.

Wrong. Hitler was powerful because he had a habit of murdering anyone who opposed him. Not unlike Saddam.

A father and son as Presidents? Saddam would have handed his power to his sons. At least your people's vote put Bush Jnr where he is.

 

[Shiftlock]

Originally posted by Beachie
At least your people's vote put Bush Jnr where he is.

Uh, no, Al Gore won the majority of the popular vote. As strange as it may seem (especially to people from other countries), Bush won by Electoral Collegiate votes only.

By the way, here’s a quote from Theodore Roosevelt (who is much admired in other contexts by the Bush administration). This is in regard to treason charges for anti-war advocates in 1918, when we were in the middle of World War I.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

 

[options]

Originally posted by Beachie
A father and son as Presidents?

You mean Bush Empire?
Who's next, Jeb?

 

[Beachie]

Originally posted by Shiftlock
Uh, no, Al Gore won the majority of the popular vote. As strange as it may seem (especially to people from other countries), Bush won by Electoral Collegiate votes only.

We have a similar electoral system here. He still won the election.

Anyway, are you anti-war, or anti-Bush (and simply opposed to *anything* he does)?

Originally posted by options
You mean Bush Empire?
Who's next, Jeb?

Depends if you vote for him

 

[Beachie]

Originally posted by Shiftlock
By the way, here’s a quote from Theodore Roosevelt (who is much admired in other contexts by the Bush administration). This is in regard to treason charges for anti-war advocates in 1918, when we were in the middle of World War I.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

Oddly enough, he didn't say that whilst *he* was President, but of Wilson, who defeated him in the 1912 election.

Wilson was relected in 1916 under the banner "He kept us out of the War", so he himself was anti-war.

..and 1918 was the end of the war, not the "middle". It started in 1914 and the US didn't take part until April 4, 1917.

 

[dvdrip]

This is as stupid a question can be.
Maybe you should bomb all the people protesting against the war in New York and other US cities.

This was has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism!
What kind of question is this?

Originally posted by WebHold


Hey Drip

I awaiting your response from the other lounge thread. As bush says, You are either for the war on terror or a terrorist. What side of the fence are you on?

 

[dvdrip]

I have seen so many dead and amputeted children on noncencored TV that your math seems so funny.

You may doubt what Al jazeera is saying but you can't doubt what it's showing. On the other hand CCN and CBS show what the reporters travelling with the us troops show and when a reporter tries to tell the truth they fire him.(Peter Arnett)

Originally posted by Togoodhlth

________________________________________________
And Saddam has killed hundreds of thousands. Literally!

Regardless of whether or not we intervene thousands will die. I can only hope we are able to keep the number of civilian casualties as low as possible. It appears we have been as Saddams (regimes) own inflated numbers state there are approximately 1000 civilians who have died. Cut this number in half and divide by 12 an we probably come up with somewhere near the correct amount.

How many of these "civilians" were soldiers dressed in civilian clothing attacking a tank with a toyota?
How many were killed by the Iraqis themselves?

By the way Al jazeera is a joke! They are indirectly (in some cases directly) funded by countries/regimes who want the US to look bad. Have you heard some of their nonsense/lies?
THe International Inquirer?!

Ok, got that off my chest.
God bless everyone in Iraq! And the rest of the world for that matter.

 

[dvdrip]

Do you have any idea how many Kurdish have been killed by Turkey? Try asking a kurd.

Originally posted by Beachie
The Iraqi Mis-Information Minister said around 1000 civilians have been killed. Assuming this isn't wildly exaggerated (in the same way that the US are "not even 100kms from Baghdad"), let's do the math:

Hypothetically, how many Iraqis (Kurdish, Shi'a and others) have been murdered since the Gulf War? Let's give a conservative estimate of 5000. So, if we'd taken Saddam out 12 years ago, we'd be 4000 humans up.

Maybe you think we should wait another 12 years for the UN to pull it's finger out? Meanwhile Russia, a UN permanent member with the power of veto, can continue to smuggle oil through Turkey, violating UN sanctions.

 

[dvdrip]

This the best quote I had read for ages!

Originally posted by Shiftlock

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

 

[Manic]

Originally posted by WebHold


Shift

Americans are informed every step of the way by asking questions and getting explantions to the direction we are headed. We have been asking thousands upon thousands of questions every week to the top leaders of our country. I am proud that they take the time to brief us every single day of the ins and the outs of this war. Opinions, after the decision for war has been made by top leadership, serves no benefit to anyone. The treason laws are pretty clear during war time. Anti-war setiment, especially with the people that can sway the masses, will be dealt with accordingly.

You need to remember that if we were all so damn good, we would be the president of this country. I realize it is intriguing to run the country from our recliners, it is now time to come back down to earth and return to our day jobs.

What you are describing, Webhold, is fascism. In other words, "If you don't agree with me I will 'deal with you accordingly'..." This is the stated reason why the US government is going after Saddam in the first place.

Mmmm... Smell the hypocrisy.

What you're also describing is the perfect citizen (from a government's point of view.)

And the perfect citizen should always let their big brother make all their decisions for them. You know he knows what's best for you!

.........

I'm sure you're not a bad guy, Webhold, but at some point your going to have to wake up, open your eyes, and start looking and thinking about things for yourself.

Nothing scares any government more than a member of the public who's brain is working.

 

[Manic]

Originally posted by Shiftlock



In my opinion, the U.S. should not be invading Iraq. I'm not a pacifist - I know war is sometimes necessary - but I just don't see the justification here. I haven't seen any good evidence that Iraq has funded terrorism. 9/11 made everyone in the U.S. a little crazy, and rightfully so, but we have to put our thinking caps on and take a deep breath here. There are three reason why this war is bad:

Economic

The U.S. will not "make a profit from" this war. It will cost a very large amount of money. Our government just approved $80 billion for the first round of funding. Our economy does not need this right now.

Diplomatic

Most of the rest of the world, our allies included, obviously sees this whole thing differently than the U.S. Taking nothing else into consideration, you have to ask your self why that is. The world sould be run in a somewhat democratic fashion, and if we ignore every other country's opinion and do whatever we want, we start to look like a rouge nation. Other countries start to question whether they want to be associated with us.

Humanitarian

We are killing thousands of Iraqi people.

Well stated.

 

[Cash Is King]

Originally posted by Shiftlock


Of course the government breifs us everyday. It's to their benefit to do so. They are trying to bolster support for this war effort. The propaganda machine is running full steam ahead.

Opinions after the decision for war serve no benefit? I think you feel that way because you support the war. Suppose the government was doing something you ademently opposed. Suppose the President decided he was going to attack Canada for no good reason. Suppose the President gave the order to commit genocide. Once the order is given and the decision is made, we should not question it? What kind of logic is that? That's the kind of thinking that made Hitler so powerful.

If we were so good, we would be president of the country? Being "good" has nothing to do with it. It's much more often about who you know and how much money you have. It's impossible that in a 12-year period, two of the BEST possible presidents in the entire country just happen to be father and son. Besides, I can think of a president (Clinton) that made a mistake I would never dream of making. And my wife wouldn't be as understanding, either. Presidents aren't perfect, they make mistakes, and the American people have an obligation to express their opinion when they disagree, wartime or no.

Shift

If Bush decided to attack Canada, I would support it because I believe in the United States Goverment and Leadership.

The problem here is you are insinuating that there would be no good reason for the decisions made by our goverment.

This is ridiculous as we are a super power and have the best intelligence in the world.

Challenging decisions after they are made is counter productive and normally done by bottom feeders who cant comprehend the big picture.

It is my belief that Syria and North Korea are next, and for good reason.

 

[Cash Is King]

Originally posted by Manic



What you are describing, Webhold, is fascism. In other words, "If you don't agree with me I will 'deal with you accordingly'..." This is the stated reason why the US government is going after Saddam in the first place.

Mmmm... Smell the hypocrisy.

What you're also describing is the perfect citizen (from a government's point of view.)

And the perfect citizen should always let their big brother make all their decisions for them. You know he knows what's best for you!

.........

I'm sure you're not a bad guy, Webhold, but at some point your going to have to wake up, open your eyes, and start looking and thinking about things for yourself.

Nothing scares any government more than a member of the public who's brain is working.

Manic

I believe in the U.S. Goverment and our Leadership. I see that it is hard to understand when you are not an American, however am proud to see Australian Leadership does.

Amercians do think for themselves. We are a super power because we do believe in our system of goverment. Maybe the rest of the world will catch up when they make that type of commitment.

Nothing scares our goverment more than weapons of mass destruction with distatorships and goverments that cannot be trusted.

When you are on top there are always people that are looking to knock you off. We have fought hard for our freedom. We will not allow our freedom to be denied. It takes strong leadership to run one country while trying to make the whole world a safer place.

 

[Mr Webname]

Originally posted by WebHold


we are a super power and have the best intelligence in the world.

"You" are a super-power and have more money and sophisticated weaponry than anyone else.
As for intelligence that has yet to in be proved to be true in respect of WMD in Iraq and I know many in my country are concerned at the number of its soldiers killed by US servicemen - not to mention killing of civillians, Kurdish Soldiers, Journalists and Russian Embassy staff. Basic intelligence should surely have prevented such "friendly fire" incidents.
There is something basically flawed with the notion "My country, right or wrong".

 

[Shiftlock]

Originally posted by WebHold


Shift

If Bush decided to attack Canada, I would support it because I believe in the United States Goverment and Leadership.

The problem here is you are insinuating that there would be no good reason for the decisions made by our goverment.

This is ridiculous as we are a super power and have the best intelligence in the world.

Challenging decisions after they are made is counter productive and normally done by bottom feeders who cant comprehend the big picture.

It is my belief that Syria and North Korea are next, and for good reason.

WebHold,

I'm going to make some strong comments, and I hope they don't offend you - please don't take this personally. Most of the world thinks we Americans are close-minded and pig-headed, and for good reason. Many Americans could care less what the rest of the world thinks. We feel that we are the best, so the hell with the rest. The rest of the world should aspire to be as good as us. It's such an elitist attitude, and it's so vein and self-righteous. Our crap stinks like everyone else’s, and maybe you shouldn't have so much faith in your government. We have problems in this counrty that are just as bad or worse than many other countries. Take healthcare for example. Would you consider for even a moment that it's possible for the U.S. to make a mistake? It's very possible. Many countries have lower unemployment, higher literacy rates, higher standards of living, less crime, etc. The U.S. isn't the only nice place in the world, and maybe we could benefit if we took some advice from other nations. Think about it.

You said that the people who challenge decisions are the people who can't see the big picture. I think it's exactly the opposite. The people who can't see the big picture are the ones who follow the government like zombies and assume that smarter people will take care of them in life.

I don't think I've ever met anyone who had more opposite opinions from my own. That's a good thing, because hearing a variety of viewpoints is so very important in a time like this. I see most of your opinions on this issue as close minded and dangerous, but I'm grateful to be hearing them.

 

[Cash Is King]

Shift

We do agree that our country has many problems and that health care is one of them. I will add homeland security, economy and social security for that matter.

Our troops, brothers, allies and main stream blood line are at war. Everybody is forgetting that. I would rather talk military strategy in terms of the coalitions goals.

 

[Cash Is King]

Originally posted by Mr Webname


"You" are a super-power and have more money and sophisticated weaponry than anyone else.
As for intelligence that has yet to in be proved to be true in respect of WMD in Iraq and I know many in my country are concerned at the number of its soldiers killed by US servicemen - not to mention killing of civillians, Kurdish Soldiers, Journalists and Russian Embassy staff. Basic intelligence should surely have prevented such "friendly fire" incidents.
There is something basically flawed with the notion "My country, right or wrong".

Webname

WMD's will be found. Friendly fire is an unfortunate part of war. I'm glad the coalition is preventing the reincarnation of Hitler. Strong leadership pulled this off.

As far as basic intelleigence goes, How many times have you seen a teamate shot when playing 50 on 50 paintball. Play the same game with real bullets and 250,000 plus troops not counting the enemy and the millions of innocent civilians. The numbers are very low for this coalition engagment.

I want this completed as fast as possible, so the troops from the coalition can get back to their families and the Iraqi people can have a country they can be proud of.

 

[dvdrip]

Originally posted by WebHold


Why don't you quit trying to run the coalition from your recliner.