Indiana - sold - $50k

[WebCat]

Wow, Roger. Are you like completely unaware or uncaring about the incredible damage this is doing to you personally, and the general reputation of Afternic in the domain community? You know it's a very small world, and soon EVERYONE will become aware of this rotten transaction. I'm sure it's already being discussed at DNF's sister sites and competitors.

Basically, in the very community you try so hard to serve, you are gaining a reputation as a cheater and one who's comfortable with keeping stolen, unearned money.

You are generally so smart when it come to business transactions, and I'm trying to figure out how you could possibly believe this will help your business model, or the future of Afternic?!

By now HUNDREDS of serious domainers, many of whom already have an account with Afternic are reading your incredible denials, and asking themselves, what if it was MY $50,000.00??? You are providing them with the answer to that question- they would be "shit-out-of-luck".

Especially when the answer is SO incredibly simple. Sit down, write the check. Mail it to Adam. At least that would stop the bleeding. If your'e short on money- I'll bet Adam will take payments. He is one of the most fair and generous guys I've met in the domain business.

 

[proproject]

WebCat, I also share your admiration for Adam. It is also important for us to treat members fairly and equally. No one in the industry guarantees domains and I will not deceive members about that. If we were to pay Adam a larger compensation than has been discussed here to win his favor, you wouldn't know about it, because I would insist that it be kept confidential. And what we did offer to Adam as mentioned here, I would offer to every member in the same situation, even though we are not obligated to offer it. That's the way we do business. I'm not seeking PR here.

John, your rhetoric is contrived to a fault, and I don't understand why. The short version of my offer "Afternic wll pay Adam $5K" is perfectly consistent with the more specific version "Afternic will pay Adam $5K and not more than $5K." The agreement we require simply states the more specific version. All above board, no promises broken.

 

[GT Web]

good points Webcat and Mr. Berryhill...

Roger, you have shown your true colours, the only way you can repair your shattered reputation is to sit down and write a check right now.

 

[NameTower]

Here's my 2 cents.

Should Adam be compensated a minimum of the fees that afternic gained from this transaction? Most certainly.

Should Afternic compensate adam for more than the fees? Probably not..

I think that afternic wants to just rid any liability from this, and I'm sure by attempting to compensate adam in the amount of $5000 it would maybe "strengthen a case" should adam pursue legal action, but I'm no lawyer so maybe that is not true.

Even if Adam does not want to sign off, I still think his money gained should be returned.

However, Afternic is infact just a middle man connecting buyers and sellers.

This is not Afternic's fault nor is it Adam's.

You would hope that a lesson has been learnt, and in the future these necessary steps would be taken in order to insure that the names have a legit history.

You guys are taking this further than it needs to.

Roger seems like a nice guy and Afternic seem like a great place to sell a domain and my opinions of this have not changed.

Things that are in question:

#1 Would giving adam $5000 without him agreeing not to sue strengthen a potential case?

#2 Is there any more to the agreement afternic wishes to sign other than an agreement not to sue?

- Jordan

 

[jberryhill]

#1 Would giving adam $5000 without him agreeing not to sue strengthen a potential case?

IMHO, no. That is simply an accomodation which Roger promised on his own authority. It doesn't change the Afternic user agreement one iota.

#2 Is there any more to the agreement afternic wishes to sign other than an agreement not to sue?

Let's put it this way. Roger can write a check. Roger's lawyer can draft an agreement. Adam, not being a lawyer, would probably prefer to see a check instead of wading through the fine print of what Roger initially stated as an exceedingly simple proposition.

No one in the industry guarantees domains and I will not deceive members about that.

Did someone say something about contrived arguments? Can anyone logically connect that quote with the proposition that Roger should make good on his promise to pay the 5K?

 

[peekaboo]

However, Afternic is infact just a middle man connecting buyers and sellers.

You would hope that a lesson has been learnt, and in the future these necessary steps would be taken in order to insure that the names have a legit history.

lesson learned is that the all third party reseller companies are useless, and that all selling and buying should be done without them when at all possible. i never bought anything thru any of those companies. why should i? i can make my own deal with the seller directly. this is also a lesson to all the buyers outthere who have no protection in this system. neither with third party companies, neither with registrars, neither with escrow & payment companies.

the current system works great to protect those who receive money (shaddy sellers, third party pimps, various payment merchants: paypal, escrow...) instead of those who part with their money. funny, but i thought the opposite would have been more logical, not to mention more lawfully honorable. but that's life for you in america - just put a basic disclaimer "upfront" and you're off the hook in perpetuity. its those buyers who are dumb to agree to such "state of affairs" that are "to blame." and maybe "rightfully so." sometimes, we get what we agree to.

boy am i mad to hear sleaze like this.

 

[NameTower]

Yes but I dont think they should be responsible for out of pocket damages.

only to return what they have made.

 

[sellinbiz]

I tend to agree with Nametower. AfterNIC has done what they were paid to do; find a buyer for the domain and escrow the process. It is sometimes impossible to know whether the domain is stolen or not. It's the risk of doing business.

 

[WebCat]

All of my comments have been about one thing- pay back the dirty money collected brokering stolen property. I can't believe there is any discussion or hesitation about this at all. It's what every policeman, judge, arbitrator, or litigation attorney would tell you to do. AND what every honest businessman would do, WITHOUT being asked!

I think I know most of the long-time domainers here well enough to say, if they were in Adam's shoes, they would be loudly crying foul and screaming for a refund at the top of their lungs.

The rest of it is for Adam and Roger to work out. The 5000.00 part is public knowledge, affects everyone who has ANY business transactions with Afternic, and should have been paid back MONTHS ago, no questions asked.

Which part of STOLEN PROPERTY is not registering here? In some states, benefitting from the transmission of STOLEN PROPERTY would make Roger an accessory after the fact to a felony. I believe that is a felony unto itself. Berryhill might know more about this part of the law.

 

[A D]

Hi all,

I have followed this thread like most on this website.

First, thanks to all that have showed me support, it will not be forgotten and is greatly appreaciated.

Second, I have no idea what Roger intends to do as he has made no attempt to contact me.

Third, I will share a little story that is verifiable.

once upon a time I tried to organize a conference in Las Vegas and in the end I cancelled it. A user here, Onspec, had already purchased his ticket to Vegas. He was the only one that did this.

In the end, even though no law told me I had to, I sent him the money to pay for the ticket that he purchased.

That was the right thing to do and I can sleep at night.

enough said.

-=DCG=-

 

[GT Web]

Adam, you are a truely professional domainer and forum owner - it really is too bad Roger wants to treat you like this.

Your contributions to DNF will also not be forgotten!!

 

[izopod]

DCG,

I wonder if it's possible to take action against Network Solutions. In this situation it appears they would be liable for allowing Indiana.com to be fraudulently transferred to someone else then illegally sold to you. It's not right the owner gets his name back, but you are out $50K. If this were a "land deal" you can bet the insurance companies would be "ponying" up your $50K to you.

The sex.com verdict here a few months ago did show that domain names are treated as property. Maybe new case law could be made in your situation to hold Network Solutions responsible for creating a illegal sale whereby you were duped out of $50K. They perform similiar functions as a land title company would in that they approve the transfer of property from one owner to another after verifying the authenticity of that request. Just a thought.

Now as far as Afternic.com goes I think the right thing for them to do would be to make things right. Making you jump through hoops is silly. If I have a customer willing to plunk down $50K at my shop you can bet your bottom dollar they would receive "premium" service in return. I don't see that you received such service. I guess we can all "arm chair" quaterback what we'd do in this sitaution, but I can tell you one thing. If I were Roger, I would have $25K immediately sent to your bank account (without delay)...but that's what I'd do, I guess. Maybe it's easier for me to say what I do, but my gut tells me that Adam would be back to buy many more domains in the future if I did take such actions.

What a pity....

 

[A D]

DCG,

but my gut tells me that Adam would be back to buy many more domains in the future if I did take such actions.

What a pity....

Yes i would and roger knows this as this was not my first transaction with him, He even used to call me when new domains came along he felt I was interested in.

I feel I dropped off his preferred list as soon as I had an issue, suprisingly, that's when the calls stopped. A weird co-incidence I guess.

-=DCG=-

 

[izopod]

I feel I dropped off his preferred list as soon as I had an issue, suprisingly, that's when the calls stopped. A weird co-incidence I guess.

-=DCG=-

That says a lot. You definitely know what type of business your dealing with after a transaction goes bad. If they clam up I know not to do business with them ever again.

 

[jberryhill]

lesson learned is that the all third party reseller companies are useless, and that all selling and buying should be done without them when at all possible.

the current system works great to protect those who receive money (shaddy sellers, third party pimps, various payment merchants: paypal, escrow...) instead of those who part with their money.

Give the man a cigar. You want to buy a domain name? Check the whois. If it is registered to a non-existent entity with a telephone number that doesn't work, walk away.

The incredible thing here IMHO is the perception that lawyers are unbelievably expensive. Even at my rate of $275 per hour, $5K would translate into more than 18 hours of undivided attention in confirming the identities of both parties to the transaction and researching the provenance of a domain name. These people collect checks in the amount of 10% for... what?

 

[A D]

Mr. Berryhill,

That is one hell of a good point.

-=DCG=-

 

[Nodnarb]

This is just a bad situation. I hope DCG and Afternic can find a way to work through this. From my perspective, Afternic has $5k in escrow, and that was their "profit" on the sale, then I'm sure their user agreement probably limits their liability to that amount. If they are willing to refund that, then kudos to them. Roger said he would, that's admirable, and to his word, I look forward to seeing that completed.

After that, I think DCG needs to get some legal action behind tracking down the rest of the $45k he's missing. Afternic and DCG need to figure out how they're going to attack this, 6 months later. Sounds like Afternic started a process, but the US authorities probably need some legal action initiated by DCG to expand the investigation. I don't care if you're Bill Gates - if he bought a $50k Corvette and couldn't drive it, he's raise hell until that car was in the driveway and cranked when he wanted to go cruising. This is a big deal to me, as a customer of both parties, and it's a lot of money - I don't care how successful you are!

 

[proproject]

I feel I dropped off his preferred list as soon as I had an issue, suprisingly, that's when the calls stopped. A weird co-incidence I guess.

DCG, you are a VIP at Afternic no matter what. The only reason we quit communicating about domain opportunities on Afternic was because we value your time. As I understood, you did not want to do business with Afternic unless we can at-least-half-insure your purchases. No exchange can do that as far as I know. We can do a lot, but we cannot commit to that. If I misunderstood your position, please let me know.

We have communicated about this at length both privately and publically and much of that is documented on this thread so I do not understand why you say I've made no attempt to contact you. Only reason I don't contact you more is because I don't want to waste your time with nothing new to add. Call me if you have any questions - I just PM'd my cell phone number to you.

 

[David G]

I have said this before and will say it again, this entire affair seems very odd and there may be more to it than what everyone is saying. The reason I say that is it's quite weird that no one seems to be pursuing filing criminal charges and tracking the recipient of the money.

It's difficult to believe the authorities refuse to investigate the case as stated earlier by Roger. Also odd DCG say's since he is in Canada there is no FBI there to file a complaint. However, I am certain Canada has a similar police authority likely with an Internet Fraud Division as does the US FBI.

If I lost $50,000 I would be pursuing the criminal aspect to the utmost degree and more than anything else. In fact, I would have filed formal criminal charges the very first day this affair started. Here is is 6-mos later and it seems that has not been done at all. Its very strange to say the least.

 

[A D]

Realnames,

Truthfully, both Roger and I have been honest about the facts.

There is nothing being hidden.

-=DCG=-